The Official 2017 US Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

[glasgow mega snake]

Donald Trump's daemon?

except that would be a toad or something.

[BoRED S2upid]

4154QLD said:

Great video on the Max v Kimi overtake saga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6zj5_igiE

Max was centimeters away from getting that legal.. great effort though

I see why that was deemed illegal now. From the view we had on the TV I just thought how the hell did he get past there, how was there room, what a move that was. From the final angle it answers those questions there really wasn’t room he had to go off track to complete it which would make for a lot more overtakes if it was legal.

[kambites]

768 said:

motco said:

The eagle...

I've seen suggestions online that it was superimposed. Which would be ridiculous, but after the build up perhaps not that much of a shock.

Well I doubt it was a real eagle with a 20 foot wing-span.

[Dr Z]

BoRED S2upid said:

4154QLD said:

Great video on the Max v Kimi overtake saga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6zj5_igiE

Max was centimeters away from getting that legal.. great effort though

I see why that was deemed illegal now. From the view we had on the TV I just thought how the hell did he get past there, how was there room, what a move that was. From the final angle it answers those questions there really wasn’t room he had to go off track to complete it which would make for a lot more overtakes if it was legal.

Yep, I too went, wow how did he do that?! when watching it live. I think they call it dive bombing.

As in, you stick your nose in and hope the other guy sees you and/or disappears. Seems to be an RBR driver speciality.

[alienwarerandy]

4154QLD said:

Great video on the Max v Kimi overtake saga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6zj5_igiE

Max was centimeters away from getting that legal.. great effort though

I am a Ferrari fan, so may be biased, but Verstappen is clearly off the circuit in that video. The weird thing is Kimi leaves space so it looks as though Verstappen could have made the move cleanly he just cut the corner to make sure he got it done.

[alienwarerandy]

Dr Z said:

Yep, I too went, wow how did he do that?! when watching it live. I think they call it dive bombing.

As in, you stick your nose in and hope the other guy sees you and/or disappears. Seems to be an RBR driver speciality.

Tend to agree with this, everyone wants to see hard racing but there are times when Daniel Ricciardo throws it up the inside and effectively just pushes the other guy totally wide / off the circuit. If Bottas had have turned and taken his normal line through turn 1, there would have been at least two race ending accidents. Seems a bit unfair to allow a driver to throw it up the inside and force the other guy to have to not turn in to avoid being taken out.

[Sylvaforever]

Vaud said:

CoolHands said:

Nobody mentioning bottas?

I think he’s for the chop.

I’m inclined to agree, Ferrari and Mercedes need stronger no 2s

ROFL

[Otispunkmeyer]

Hungrymc said:

ukaskew said:

Stick a wall there and Bottas concedes that position 100 times out of 100. Sure it makes Ricciardo's move a little harsher, but Bottas has ample opportunity to tuck in behind if he absolutely has to due to impending concrete impact otherwise. At Castle Combe you don’t see too many drivers deciding to keep their foot in and take to the grass rather than concede and tuck in up the arse of the car that made the move

I’m not sure how that’s not gaining an advantage by leaving track limits.

If there was a wall there it would all be different. They both would have been in it as DR went in very hot and off line and went off track on exit as well. So I think the sensible decision was no harm done / nothing to investigate.

Have to agree... I think ukaskew has been very careful in his selection of his original screen grabs. DR lunged from about 2 miles back and sent it right up the inside on an unsuspecting VB. DR went way wide and as a result VB got pushed all the way out as well. If there was a wall, they'd both be out. If they're enforcing limits to the letter, they both get a 5 second penalty (and likely nothing would have changed). IMO if you are going to force someone way way out like that then you can't moan if that piece of tarmac allows them to keep their hand in the game.

With MV and KR, it was different. Max just drove clean over the corner to get by... I reckon if he'd have done something similar to the above and managed to keep in front... he'd have been allowed to keep it.

[VolvoT5]

alienwarerandy said:

Dr Z said:

Yep, I too went, wow how did he do that?! when watching it live. I think they call it dive bombing.

As in, you stick your nose in and hope the other guy sees you and/or disappears. Seems to be an RBR driver speciality.

Tend to agree with this, everyone wants to see hard racing but there are times when Daniel Ricciardo throws it up the inside and effectively just pushes the other guy totally wide / off the circuit. If Bottas had have turned and taken his normal line through turn 1, there would have been at least two race ending accidents. Seems a bit unfair to allow a driver to throw it up the inside and force the other guy to have to not turn in to avoid being taken out.

This is the argument I have been making for years though.

When the other driver doesn't see it coming or decides not to jump out of the way it results in carnage and weeks of debate about who was to blame. When they do see it coming and make space they often lose the position and everyone raves about what an incredible overtaking move it was... It is a no win situation for the guy in front when the likes of Ricciardo make one of these dive bomb attacks.

He forced Bottas off the road yesterday which is why I think Bottas avoided a penalty for maintaining his position despite going off track.

[HustleRussell]

alienwarerandy said:

Dr Z said:

Yep, I too went, wow how did he do that?! when watching it live. I think they call it dive bombing.

As in, you stick your nose in and hope the other guy sees you and/or disappears. Seems to be an RBR driver speciality.

Tend to agree with this, everyone wants to see hard racing but there are times when Daniel Ricciardo throws it up the inside and effectively just pushes the other guy totally wide / off the circuit. If Bottas had have turned and taken his normal line through turn 1, there would have been at least two race ending accidents. Seems a bit unfair to allow a driver to throw it up the inside and force the other guy to have to not turn in to avoid being taken out.

Verstappen on Raikkonen wasn’t a dive bomb, it wasn’t even done on the brakes. Raikkonen was slightly wider than normal for whatever reason and thought about tightening his line once he saw Verstappen there, but it was ineffective and served only to cause Verstappen to hold an even tighter line (completely cutting the corner). The gap was there, which was Raikkonen’s lookout, and frustratingly it looked as though Verstappen could’ve easily kept part of one of his tyres on the circuit but alas.

Ricciardo in T1 was dive-bombing but that’s the way you have to do it in F1, You need a big overspeed into a big braking zone. If you can get a significant portion of your car up the inside by the apex the victim is obliged to allow racing room on the apex and is generally forced off the circuit on exit by way of gratitude because the passing car has gone in so hot on a shallow line.

[Vaud]

I just noticed that Ocon is only 13 pts behind Perez; every chance that he could beat him this year; his form has been strong in second half of the season.

[paua]

If track limits are not to be enforced all the time for all drivers equally, they may as well not have a goddamn track. If the consequence of going off track was a puncture/ bent suspension etc, the drivers might all learn to stay on track - no exceptions. Driver behaviour seems to have deteriorated in inverse proportion to increasing safety standards over the last 3-4 decades - there is no longer a natural deterrent for "mistakes". Ask some of the older chaps ( eg, Moss, Stewart) about etiquette, discipline etc. Used to be that if one made a fk up, one didn't finish the race. Now, some here seem to wish to reward poor behaviour.
They don't give out Olympic gold medals for cutting across the infield in the 1500 m.

[thegreenhell]

BoRED S2upid said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6zj5_igiE

Max was centimeters away from getting that legal.. great effort though

Quite a lot of centimetres.

[Vaud]

paua said:

If track limits are not to be enforced all the time for all drivers equally, they may as well not have a goddamn track. If the consequence of going off track was a puncture/ bent suspension etc, the drivers might all learn to stay on track - no exceptions. Driver behaviour seems to have deteriorated in inverse proportion to increasing safety standards over the last 3-4 decades - there is no longer a natural deterrent for "mistakes". Ask some of the older chaps ( eg, Moss, Stewart) about etiquette, discipline etc. Used to be that if one made a fk up, one didn't finish the race. Now, some here seem to wish to reward poor behaviour.
They don't give out Olympic gold medals for cutting across the infield in the 1500 m.

There is an element of "playstation generation", but then we don't like seeing our heroes die on television from an error. I agree that 30-40 years ago errors meant not finishing the race (or even being killed)

The problem is that race tracks have multiple uses. What might work for one formula, wouldn't for another. Bikes and cars need different run offs as I understand it so we inevitably end up with a compromise.

Given technology, would a better punishment be a remote deployed power loss to the car for X seconds? Losing 100hp for a lap? Just an idea.

[moanthebairns]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Vaud said:

StevieBee said:

The issue is that the tracks have become too benign. As many ex-drivers mentioned, bring the grass to the other side of the kerbs and you effectively self-govern the matter as the consequences of exceeding track limits is more stark.

Many tracks rely on multi use - cars, bikes, etc. One reason they don't want gravel or grass is that it has a tendency to flip bikes.

Actually I think the opposite is true, gravel traps slow a bike accident considerably. It's the cars they don't work too well with, where as long as you don't have brake failure a tarmac run off will provide much more room to avoid an accident.

Unfortunately for the bikers, the tarmac run off isn't quite as forgiving to bounce along.

You've never raced or track ridden bikes then?

Or went through the gravel at craner curves at 100 mph+ with it barely even slowing you down as you skip over it at high speed, unable to touch the brakes as your ending up in a sticker bus if you do. I'd sooner have loads of tarmac to sit the bike up, apply brakes, make the corner than gravel. It's not really the bounce it the avoiding the bounce in the first place. Ride any UK club circuit and your going down on grass on gravel 90% the time for going off. If its wet, forget about it.

At tracks where this happens, moto gp doesn't think twice about penalising for going out with track limits to gain an advantage. This was an utter piss take from start to finish yesterday with track limits. Two wheels on the track at all times.

[Speed Badger]

Having looked at that F1 YouTube video of the angles, it was an unfair overtake. I think we can all sensibly agree that now.

However due to the inconsistency of the penalties regarding track limits during the weekend, I think the best course of action should have been to allow the move to stand unless Ferrari lodged an appeal.

[thegreenhell]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

Perhaps, but running wide on exit is making the track longer, whereas cutting an apex is shortening the track. To make a pass while cutting a corner out of bounds should result in a penalty. I don't think anyone successfully executed a pass by running wide off track around the outside of another car, but if they had I would expect them to receive a similar penalty.

[moanthebairns]

motco said:

The eagle...

I saw this last night and it puzzled me for a few laps. I'm sure I saw it a few times. I concluded or guessed it must have been the "zip line wire camera".

Did turn one have one of these like at other GP's with just a eagle outline on top of the camera to create this. If others are saying its super imposed well I never.

edit: now I see that image its far too big for that. It must be imposed

Edited by moanthebairns on Monday 23 October 10:53

[paua]

Vaud said:

There is an element of "playstation generation", but then we don't like seeing our heroes die on television from an error. I agree that 30-40 years ago errors meant not finishing the race (or even being killed)

The problem is that race tracks have multiple uses. What might work for one formula, wouldn't for another. Bikes and cars need different run offs as I understand it so we inevitably end up with a compromise.

Given technology, would a better punishment be a remote deployed power loss to the car for X seconds? Losing 100hp for a lap? Just an idea.

Agreed, we don't want to see people dying etc. I'm sure technology exists to do something as you suggest, cross a laser beam & forfeit a place/ penalty, etc. A solution is needed.

[E34-3.2]

thegreenhell said:

BoRED S2upid said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6zj5_igiE

Max was centimeters away from getting that legal.. great effort though

Quite a lot of centimetres.

Yep, and Max knows that it was an illegal move. Other who went off the track like Saint didn't benefits of it.