The Official 2017 US Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

[768]

Digga said:

I'm not totally convinced. Yes he's off the track, but I do feel that if you watch the in-car POV of MV, he does seem to tighten his turn more in case Kimmi did not allow space on the apex or exit.

Yeah, Kimi moved away at virtually the same time too, which exaggerates the gap between them in the frame above.

[The Surveyor]

Digga said:

I'm not totally convinced. Yes he's off the track, but I do feel that if you watch the in-car POV of MV, he does seem to tighten his turn more in case Kimmi did not allow space on the apex or exit. Call it a mistake or an over-compensation, but it does look that he was mindful of avoiding collision. It was certainly a pass that carried speed differential - watching in real time you see the split-second nature of the pass.

There is a risk that, in pressing this ruling, the FIA inadvertently cause more incidences of contact by overtaking cars - inside or outside.

There is enough wheel-to-wheel racing already and that'll continue, Max didn't have to go all the way over the verge, if he had left his outer wheels on the line whilst positioning his car on the inside of Kimi he would have been washing champagne rather than tears out of his overalls this morning

[Dr Z]

InductionRoar said:

We are so lucky to have posters on PH, whose individual contributions hold far more weight than the entire C4 commentary team and even the great Niki Lauda, whose combined experience in the sport clearly counts for nothing against such armchair luminaries.

Spoilsport! PH loves a good dissection of an overtake or a steward decision. Look on the bright side, be grateful that there's actually some racing to talk about. This is F1, with all it's tyre destroying, dirty air emitting, understeer inducing goodness, producing some racing spectacle. Gotta be worth celebrating and dissecting.

Vaud said:

Given technology, would a better punishment be a remote deployed power loss to the car for X seconds? Losing 100hp for a lap? Just an idea.

Could actually work. They used some small loops embedded in the track to police track limits at Silverstone last year. IIRC, Hamilton got one of his quali laps deleted for going off track. If a car exceeds track limits, the next time it cuts the timing beam at the end of the lap, have a signal transmitted to it that disables ERS assist for a lap. You go off track? You lose 160 bhp, and become a sitting duck. No need to argue about giving the place back then.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2016/...

[thegreenhell]

Digga said:

There is a risk that, in pressing this ruling, the FIA inadvertently cause more incidences of contact by overtaking cars - inside or outside.

There is a risk that if the FIA had not pressed this ruling, it would have opened things up for people to get away with all sorts of dodgy stuff, like passing other cars by cutting corners.

[Digga]

768 said:

Digga said:

I'm not totally convinced. Yes he's off the track, but I do feel that if you watch the in-car POV of MV, he does seem to tighten his turn more in case Kimmi did not allow space on the apex or exit.

Yeah, Kimi moved away at virtually the same time too, which exaggerates the gap between them in the frame above.

I saw this too - they both 'blinked' at the same point and for the same reason; both want the place, but neither wants to cause a crash. Sensible racing from both IMHO.

There'd been some excellent dicing between drivers in the race, and a lot if it was the result of a track layout that was wide enough to accommodate overtaking. It seems a shame to have mitigated this by a fairly 50:50 post-race call.

[zebra]

Derek Smith said:

I thoroughly enjoyed that. A good opening few laps, with some really classy overtakes. The mid race was enlivened by Verstappen passing a number of cars. There were overtakes all through the races, different strategies, and some pathos with Ricciardo's race ending.

And the final part of the race, for more than a dozen laps, we had lots of alternatives. A really quite thrilling race, right up until the end.

A memorable race.

All helped by a well designed track as well.

[angrymoby]

InductionRoar said:

We are so lucky to have posters on PH, whose individual contributions hold far more weight than the entire C4 commentary team and even the great Niki Lauda, whose combined experience in the sport clearly counts for nothing against such armchair luminaries.

C4 coverage didn't show/have access to that shot of Max about half a meter over the line, so i doubt Niki did either ...so not entirely sure he'd hold that opinion now

although the 2 ex RBR drivers probably do

[The Moose]

The Surveyor said:

The Moose said:

.......

I still think if there was an electronic limiter that effectively felt like the cars were driving through treacle when all 4 wheels not within the white lines would solve pretty much all the issues.

............

Pretty much agree with everything you put except the above, more technology interfering with the cars is the last thing F1 needs IMHO.

Generally I would agree with you, however with the way stewards are selected at each race varying results will occur. It’s hard to get exactly the same call every time from any ‘referee’ in any sport. Something like this would be enough of a deterrent, spectators could understand it and drivers then aren’t Penalised for further laps (as others seem to be suggesting).

[angrymoby]

The Moose said:

Generally I would agree with you, however with the way stewards are selected at each race varying results will occur. It’s hard to get exactly the same call every time from any ‘referee’ in any sport. Something like this would be enough of a deterrent, spectators could understand it and drivers then aren’t Penalised for further laps (as others seem to be suggesting).

consequence would be no one would ever try to overtake round the outside, for fear of being forced out wide

do we want to encourage racing/ overtaking or not? (which is the whole point of run offs isn't it?)

[StevieBee]

Digga said:

StevieBee said:

rdjohn said:

thegreenhell said:

Quite a lot of centimetres.

Hmmm, having now seen that picture, I have changed my mind. The live TV looked like an audacious move - that looks more like cheating.

Kimi is defending the corner perfectly, there is no possibility going round the outside, but it now looks like Max has just staightlined the apex.

As the picture shows; it's a slam-dunk contravention and worthy of reprimand.

This issue is that others did the same at various points but suffered no penalty.

I'm not totally convinced. Yes he's off the track, but I do feel that if you watch the in-car POV of MV, he does seem to tighten his turn more in case Kimmi did not allow space on the apex or exit. Call it a mistake or an over-compensation, but it does look that he was mindful of avoiding collision. It was certainly a pass that carried speed differential - watching in real time you see the split-second nature of the pass.

There is a risk that, in pressing this ruling, the FIA inadvertently cause more incidences of contact by overtaking cars - inside or outside.

I know what you're saying but there was plenty of space for Max to have avoided Kimi tightening into the bend and still keeping the majority of two wheels on the circuit. The photo shows him to be clearly way off the circuit. It may not have been intentional but exceed the limits he did.

[Derek Smith]

zebra said:

Derek Smith said:

I thoroughly enjoyed that. A good opening few laps, with some really classy overtakes. The mid race was enlivened by Verstappen passing a number of cars. There were overtakes all through the races, different strategies, and some pathos with Ricciardo's race ending.

And the final part of the race, for more than a dozen laps, we had lots of alternatives. A really quite thrilling race, right up until the end.

A memorable race.

All helped by a well designed track as well.

Yes, I should have mentioned that. And Sainz' drive. We could have seen more of that.

[The Surveyor]

The Moose said:

Generally I would agree with you, however with the way stewards are selected at each race varying results will occur. It’s hard to get exactly the same call every time from any ‘referee’ in any sport. Something like this would be enough of a deterrent, spectators could understand it and drivers then aren’t Penalised for further laps (as others seem to be suggesting).

Stewards will always make different decisions because no two incidents are the same, they make a judgement and are as human as the drivers in their ability to sometimes get it wrong.

As I said earlier, I'd rather see track design adjustments which ensures it's never possible to gain a real advantage by going outside the track limits. Be that overtaking or in outright speed, there should be measures designed to deter drivers from going off-piste such as sausage kerbs, grass, gravel, artificial turf, all of which are used on other tracks to limit opportunities.

[thegreenhell]

Derek Smith said:

Yes, I should have mentioned that. And Sainz' drive. We could have seen more of that.

Sainz was very impressive. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Hulk vs Sainz battle develops within the Renault team.

[angrymoby]

these were Max's plans for Mexico...



...well, up until that 'idiot' steward's meddling

[Digga]

Derek Smith said:

zebra said:

Derek Smith said:

I thoroughly enjoyed that. A good opening few laps, with some really classy overtakes. The mid race was enlivened by Verstappen passing a number of cars. There were overtakes all through the races, different strategies, and some pathos with Ricciardo's race ending.

And the final part of the race, for more than a dozen laps, we had lots of alternatives. A really quite thrilling race, right up until the end.

A memorable race.

All helped by a well designed track as well.

Yes, I should have mentioned that. And Sainz' drive. We could have seen more of that.

Agreed. Very well designed circuit and a great race. Some superb overtaking and some good individual drives. Kudos to Hartley for a clean F1 debut included.

I hear what people say about making the off piste less friendly - to stop this sort of controversy - but then you risk losing drivers because cars get damage in avoidance of accidents, or after genuine, accidental incursions.

[The Moose]

angrymoby said:

The Moose said:

Generally I would agree with you, however with the way stewards are selected at each race varying results will occur. It’s hard to get exactly the same call every time from any ‘referee’ in any sport. Something like this would be enough of a deterrent, spectators could understand it and drivers then aren’t Penalised for further laps (as others seem to be suggesting).

consequence would be no one would ever try to overtake round the outside, for fear of being forced out wide

do we want to encourage racing/ overtaking or not? (which is the whole point of run offs isn't it?)

I thought the whole point of run off was so that if someone made a mistake it didn’t cost them the race/personal damage.

My scheme would only happen when all 4 wheels were over the line. Aren’t there also rules that say you’re supposed to leave a cars width if so much of the overtaking vehicle is alongside meaning you can’t completely run another car off the road?

You’re not going to stamp out over taking as that is how these guys earn their living.

[HustleRussell]

You’ll get black flagged on a trackday or test session at Snetterton if you trigger the pressure pads beyond the kerbs at Palmer, Williams or Nelson. Do it in qualifying and that lap is deleted. Do it in the race and you’ll get one black/white diagonal warning flag and the next is a black flag.

It works. If the option to extend the track beyond the kerbs is not available, drivers will ensure that they don’t- or else.

[p1stonhead]

HustleRussell said:

You’ll get black flagged on a trackday or test session at Snetterton if you trigger the pressure pads beyond the kerbs at Palmer, Williams or Nelson. Do it in qualifying and that lap is deleted. Do it in the race and you’ll get one black/white diagonal warning flag and the next is a black flag.

It works. If the option to extend the track beyond the kerbs is not available, drivers will ensure that they don’t- or else.

Seems like a fairly sensible way to objectively control things. Surprised its not a 'normal' thing at tracks.

I guess people may need to use run offs when they are squeezed a bit but it could still be looked at on a incident by incident basis couldnt it if the pads get triggered? If they dont, crack on.

[angrymoby]

The Moose said:

I thought the whole point of run off was so that if someone made a mistake it didn’t cost them the race/personal damage.

Exactly, improving the racing

The Moose said:

My scheme would only happen when all 4 wheels were over the line.

pretty much the whole field then

The Moose said:

Aren’t there also rules that say you’re supposed to leave a cars width if so much of the overtaking vehicle is alongside meaning you can’t completely run another car off the road?

at apex's & straights ...but not afaiaa at corner exits (for obvious reasons)

The Moose said:

You’re not going to stamp out over taking as that is how these guys earn their living.

No, but you can reduce/ encourage it (see above)

[stiII_I_undomyseatbelts]

Basically this effup proves that the only way to make racing fair again is to turn these red paved areas and the paved run off areas into either grass or gravel traps. This wouldn't have happened if this track wasn't designed by the GranTurismo generation for the GranTurismo generation.