New engine regs for 2021
Discussion
ukaskew said:
I think that’s incredibly short sighted and more than likely flat out wrong. Manufacturers and sponsors are pushing heavily in that direction, they will make it work but it’s very early days.
It has the potential to be a great thing for Motorsport, particularly for the many, many circuits battling ever stricter noise limits etc.
Would I compete in it = NoIt has the potential to be a great thing for Motorsport, particularly for the many, many circuits battling ever stricter noise limits etc.
Would I pay to watch it on TV via my sky F1 channel subs = No I'm already at the point on cancelling that based on current F1
Would I pay to go and watch it = No
Why? No noise or smell is boring in Motorsport and it wouldn't be Motorsport in the truest sense of the word either. It's a fad like Hybrid was and it wont catch on because the fans won't like it.
One mans short sighted is another mans visionary...
Soul Reaver said:
Would I compete in it = No
Would I pay to watch it on TV via my sky F1 channel subs = No I'm already at the point on cancelling that based on current F1
Would I pay to go and watch it = No
Why? No noise or smell is boring in Motorsport and it wouldn't be Motorsport in the truest sense of the word either. It's a fad like Hybrid was and it wont catch on because the fans won't like it.
One mans short sighted is another mans visionary...
Whilst I understand the POV....it's not all about you...Would I pay to watch it on TV via my sky F1 channel subs = No I'm already at the point on cancelling that based on current F1
Would I pay to go and watch it = No
Why? No noise or smell is boring in Motorsport and it wouldn't be Motorsport in the truest sense of the word either. It's a fad like Hybrid was and it wont catch on because the fans won't like it.
One mans short sighted is another mans visionary...
Think of drone racing etc... sports move on as does the nature of the competition.
So a hearing impaired person wouldn’t enjoy Motorsport? I like the noise as much as the next person, but I’m there for the racing quite frankly. Some of the best races I see live each year are the Mini Miglias, hardly an aural treat.
I’d rather watch a field of closely packed EVs than some of the dreadful racing I’ve seen with cars with V8s etc this year.
I’d rather watch a field of closely packed EVs than some of the dreadful racing I’ve seen with cars with V8s etc this year.
I like Motoracing, it does not really matter if it’s Karts, bikes, BTCC or EV - if it’s free.
In 2019, we will lose free to air live F1 and that will be a really big issue. I am not inclined to pay SKY, when I currently watch it, it seems very poor. I put FP2 on on Friday to get a handle on race pace, but with Croft and de Resta droning on about absolute drivel, I genuinely fell asleep and then turned it off after an hour. My wife tolerated even less.
I guess I could be watching a lot more FE in the future. There is usually quite a lot of close racing, but they do need to do something about Micky Mouse tracks, like London. Mexico worked really well and they weren’t hobbled by altitude.
In 2019, we will lose free to air live F1 and that will be a really big issue. I am not inclined to pay SKY, when I currently watch it, it seems very poor. I put FP2 on on Friday to get a handle on race pace, but with Croft and de Resta droning on about absolute drivel, I genuinely fell asleep and then turned it off after an hour. My wife tolerated even less.
I guess I could be watching a lot more FE in the future. There is usually quite a lot of close racing, but they do need to do something about Micky Mouse tracks, like London. Mexico worked really well and they weren’t hobbled by altitude.
Seriously I think the fans are sick to death of the complexity of the power plants as must be the teams. I think the fans would like to see a normal engine in the back of the car which would be much easier to make and maintain and also be cheaper too. Not to mention it would sound awesome.
Of course the fans never get what they would like in F1 so I shall stick to watching TOCA and Ginetta Juniors which has more action that 2 hours of F1 anyway. I shall also be watching the new TCR next year and will likely cancel my Sky subs to F1 HD as being a waste of money.
Of course the fans never get what they would like in F1 so I shall stick to watching TOCA and Ginetta Juniors which has more action that 2 hours of F1 anyway. I shall also be watching the new TCR next year and will likely cancel my Sky subs to F1 HD as being a waste of money.
Another thing fans are sick to death of is the stupid grid penalties for exceeding the engine allocation - which is set to drop even further next year.( https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/09/21/power-unit-... )
Yes, it may occasionally produce the sight of a fast car carving its way through from the back of the field, but more often has led to a mid-field car being stuck behind slower cars unable to overtake. When an engine has to last 7 races, there will always be the temptation to turn it down to try and preserve it rather than fight from a lowly grid position.
I'd far rather see them racing balls-out with relatively cheap power units designed to last a weekend than tiptoeing around preserving engine life for another 6 races
Yes, it may occasionally produce the sight of a fast car carving its way through from the back of the field, but more often has led to a mid-field car being stuck behind slower cars unable to overtake. When an engine has to last 7 races, there will always be the temptation to turn it down to try and preserve it rather than fight from a lowly grid position.
I'd far rather see them racing balls-out with relatively cheap power units designed to last a weekend than tiptoeing around preserving engine life for another 6 races
Soul Reaver said:
the fans won't like it.
Soul Reaver said:
Seriously I think the fans are sick to death of the complexity of the power plants as must be the teams. I think the fans would like to see a normal engine in the back of the car
I'm really glad you are here to tell me what I, the fan, think of F1 
The entire hybrid engine regulations from '14 to '20 has been poorly thought out and is based on a monumental underestimation of the engine manufacturers' own capabilities. Made worse by the fact that the regulatory ship of F1 is not the most agile to manoeuvre.
The timelines originally envisaged for convergence to happen has missed the target by a big margin, so the regulations needs to be realigned based on that. This hasn't happened, and looks like it will not happen for 2021.
Exhibit A - The token system. Expectation: cut costs by gradually freezing development on more and more engine parts. A big and very risky assumption made by these regulations is that all engine manufacturers would hit the ground running right from the start.
Reality: All except one manufacturer hugely underestimated the task before them in 2014, which meant the token system prevented convergence, but all finally agreeing to scrap tokens from 2017 on. That's three years in the wilderness for manufacturers who haven't hit the ground running! Destroyed hopes of new manufacturers entering the sport seeing how Honda struggled through 2015. Can't have helped with engaging a bigger audience worldwide with 1 manufacturer dominating so soon after another period of the same. RB wasn't to the same level for all 4 years prior I accept, but it's all the same for a casual viewer.
Exhibit B - Gradual tapering off of the number of engines that can be used without penalties. Expectation: After the first few years, the manufacturers would nail the basic concepts for these engines, so then they can work on making it more reliable. Maybe there was another expectation that it would help convergence as different engines running at the edge of their performance envelope would exaggerate the power differences.
I'm not expecting reality to match up to this, simply because it looks like there's still a lot of catching up to do for half the engine manufacturers involved in the sport. I feel the best way to encourage convergence, is to not touch anything until everyone can run the whole season on 4/5 engines. Then taper it, for 2/3 more years and bring in the new PU regulations after that. This way, all the manufacturers involved can feel that they've got good mileage out of their efforts investing the $$$ in developing these powertrains.
I feel new engine regulations for 2021 would be too soon, in which case we would barely have had two years with all the engine manufacturers achieving parity (I expect Honda to get there by 2019/2020).
The V8s ran for 8 years didn't they?
Ah the concorde agreement runs out by 2020. Classic F1.
The timelines originally envisaged for convergence to happen has missed the target by a big margin, so the regulations needs to be realigned based on that. This hasn't happened, and looks like it will not happen for 2021.
Exhibit A - The token system. Expectation: cut costs by gradually freezing development on more and more engine parts. A big and very risky assumption made by these regulations is that all engine manufacturers would hit the ground running right from the start.
Reality: All except one manufacturer hugely underestimated the task before them in 2014, which meant the token system prevented convergence, but all finally agreeing to scrap tokens from 2017 on. That's three years in the wilderness for manufacturers who haven't hit the ground running! Destroyed hopes of new manufacturers entering the sport seeing how Honda struggled through 2015. Can't have helped with engaging a bigger audience worldwide with 1 manufacturer dominating so soon after another period of the same. RB wasn't to the same level for all 4 years prior I accept, but it's all the same for a casual viewer.
Exhibit B - Gradual tapering off of the number of engines that can be used without penalties. Expectation: After the first few years, the manufacturers would nail the basic concepts for these engines, so then they can work on making it more reliable. Maybe there was another expectation that it would help convergence as different engines running at the edge of their performance envelope would exaggerate the power differences.
I'm not expecting reality to match up to this, simply because it looks like there's still a lot of catching up to do for half the engine manufacturers involved in the sport. I feel the best way to encourage convergence, is to not touch anything until everyone can run the whole season on 4/5 engines. Then taper it, for 2/3 more years and bring in the new PU regulations after that. This way, all the manufacturers involved can feel that they've got good mileage out of their efforts investing the $$$ in developing these powertrains.
I feel new engine regulations for 2021 would be too soon, in which case we would barely have had two years with all the engine manufacturers achieving parity (I expect Honda to get there by 2019/2020).
The V8s ran for 8 years didn't they?
Ah the concorde agreement runs out by 2020. Classic F1.
ukaskew said:
Soul Reaver said:
The issue they have is that EV will never take off in motorsport in a big way no matter what they do because quite simply EV cars are boring.
I think that’s incredibly short sighted and more than likely flat out wrong. Manufacturers and sponsors are pushing heavily in that direction, they will make it work but it’s very early days.It has the potential to be a great thing for Motorsport, particularly for the many, many circuits battling ever stricter noise limits etc.
https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/132998/details-o...
rscott said:
Hugo Boss have ended their 30 year presence in F1 to move to Formula E because they felt FE was "more innovative and sustainable" than F1.
https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/132998/details-o...
Or to put in a way that’s more factual, cheaper. https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/132998/details-o...
DanielSan said:
rscott said:
Hugo Boss have ended their 30 year presence in F1 to move to Formula E because they felt FE was "more innovative and sustainable" than F1.
https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/132998/details-o...
Or to put in a way that’s more factual, cheaper. https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/132998/details-o...
rscott said:
DanielSan said:
rscott said:
Hugo Boss have ended their 30 year presence in F1 to move to Formula E because they felt FE was "more innovative and sustainable" than F1.
https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/132998/details-o...
Or to put in a way that’s more factual, cheaper. https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/132998/details-o...
I wont be surprised to see them back in F1 when they realise how crap the following for FE is and how their brand benefited from the high end image of F1.
Actually talking about this Ill relate what happened this weekend.
So I had recorded the TCR from Dubai and was watching it. The Mrs came in and said turn it up I cant hear the cars only the commentator. It was actually very bad production and indeed you could hardly hear the cars and as a consequence it was just boreless to watch it really was and we turned it off.
Now I admit that we are all different and for some that might not be an issue at all but for us it is and hence we would not go and watch any form of EV sport or indeed watch it on TV.
So I had recorded the TCR from Dubai and was watching it. The Mrs came in and said turn it up I cant hear the cars only the commentator. It was actually very bad production and indeed you could hardly hear the cars and as a consequence it was just boreless to watch it really was and we turned it off.
Now I admit that we are all different and for some that might not be an issue at all but for us it is and hence we would not go and watch any form of EV sport or indeed watch it on TV.
2fast748 said:
3 litre N/a V8s then? 
Mark-C said:
3 litre N/a V8s then?
Not sure about that, I think it might be a 1.6 litre with a single turbo. No MGU-H, but bigger MGU-K deployed by driver to assist overtaking and a 18,000 rev limit. With very limited scope for development.In other words, the FIA will simply ratify what has already been agreed.
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