The Official Australian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
jsf said:
Car-Matt said:
Utter nonsense
The VSC was to make sure that despite safety car conditions you couldn't have drivers exceeding the speed of the safety car until they caught the back of the queue in part response to Jules Bianchi's accident
Do at least pretend to follow the sport
For completeness here's a link explaining it http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/safety_car_virt...
You are talking nonsense yourself.The VSC was to make sure that despite safety car conditions you couldn't have drivers exceeding the speed of the safety car until they caught the back of the queue in part response to Jules Bianchi's accident
Do at least pretend to follow the sport
For completeness here's a link explaining it http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/safety_car_virt...
Edited by Car-Matt on Tuesday 27th March 10:44
The Safety car isn't on the track during a VSC, it is a system used to lower the speed of cars during a danger period without the need to send the safety car out on track. Under VSC no car should gain or lose the gap to the car in front or behind.
This is why the anomaly of being able to gain an advantage in the pit stops goes against the idea behind the VSC.
It was brought into the rules because drivers were driving too fast in yellow zones, which meant they couldn't recover a car safely. It was introduced so you wouldnt have the change in race outcome that can happen with the cars closing up during a physical safety car period.
THE VSC is to ensure that cars are speed limited all the time under VSC conditions so accidents like Jules Bianchi's can be avoided where he wasn't on the back of the safety car train and could make his own decision to drive at higher speed than was safe. ie you use VSC INSTEAD of a Physical one and its effective immediately.
That is the exact reason VSC was introduced was stated by the FIA, it was NOTHING to do with making sure people didn't gain or lose time compared to each other, in that respect it works in exactly the same way as a real safety car if somebody pits under VSC or SC conditions, they gain time over those that pit under Grenn Flag conditions....hence everyone who hasn't yet pitted always dives for the pits under SC/VSC
What don't you understand about that? Its wholly to keep drivers safe and nothing to do with 'making the race fair' or whatever nonsense you're talking about.
The fact is Vettel pitted under VSC ( could have easily been SC ) and Hamilton pitted under green flag conditions, therefore Hamilton was unable to pass Vettel when Vettel stopped because he couldnt exceed the VSC speed limit ( could just as easily have been SC )
jsf said:
The Moose said:
jsf said:
They don't even recognise its a problem, so i wouldn't expect any rule change.
Recognize what is a problem? That under safety cars there are some winners and some losers?MartG said:
The specific wrinkle which Ferrari took advantage of is that while under VSC conditions, cars on the circuit must travel at a particular speed limit BUT this limit does not apply to pit entry or exit roads. As soon as he crossed the line marking the boundary between the circuit and the pit entry road, Vettel nailed the throttle and gained enough speed & distance to pass Hamilton who remained out and subject to the VSC limits.
So you didn't watch the race then....jsf said:
The Moose said:
jsf said:
The Moose said:
jsf said:
They don't even recognise its a problem, so i wouldn't expect any rule change.
Recognize what is a problem? That under safety cars there are some winners and some losers?I thought the idea was they could deal with smaller issues more quickly as they didn't have to worry about drivers trying to catch up with the back of the pack before sending the marshals onto the track?
I am however the first to hold my hand up and say I am wrong however...
If someone can gain an advantage from its deployment, then the race hasn't been neutralised.
You cant serve any penalties whilst the VSC is in operation, for the same reason.
Hungrymc said:
So people gain an advantage under full SC. You get to close the gaps and even unlap yourself.... huge advantage.
The only advantage under VSC I can see is the potential pit stop. I’ve been thinking it is what it is, one of those things, no need to change anything......
BUT does the pit stopper get to fire off at least one sector at pretty much racing speed if there are no cars to pass? .
The only advantage under VSC I can see is the potential pit stop. I’ve been thinking it is what it is, one of those things, no need to change anything......
BUT does the pit stopper get to fire off at least one sector at pretty much racing speed if there are no cars to pass? .
No
the VSC limits their speed on all parts of the track that are governed by the double waved yellows, so thats the safty control there, the saftey control in the pits is the pit lane limiter.
There is no opportunity to 'speed' under VSC/Double waved Yellows anywhere unless i've missed something?
The Moose said:
jsf said:
The Moose said:
jsf said:
The Moose said:
jsf said:
They don't even recognise its a problem, so i wouldn't expect any rule change.
Recognize what is a problem? That under safety cars there are some winners and some losers?I thought the idea was they could deal with smaller issues more quickly as they didn't have to worry about drivers trying to catch up with the back of the pack before sending the marshals onto the track?
I am however the first to hold my hand up and say I am wrong however...
If someone can gain an advantage from its deployment, then the race hasn't been neutralised.
You cant serve any penalties whilst the VSC is in operation, for the same reason.
Out of interest, what’s the wording of the rule(s) regarding the full safety car?
40.1 The VSC procedure may be initiated to neutralise a practice session or a race upon the order of
the clerk of the course.
It will normally be used when double waved yellow flags are needed on any section of track
and competitors or officials may be in danger, but the circumstances are not such as to
warrant use of the safety car itself.
Edited by Car-Matt on Wednesday 28th March 09:14
To be totally clear for JSF's benefit, there are even parts of the VSC rules specifically explaining about passing and pits stops (this doesnt apply to Oz 2018) BUT it is conclusive that the rule is NOT designed to prevent advantage being gained under VSC, it is a pure safety based ruling. 40.6 a,b,c will tell you exactly that the rule is NOT designed to prevent passing/gaining advantage etc.
Thanks and goodnight
40) VIRTUAL SAFETY CAR (VSC)
40.1 The VSC procedure may be initiated to neutralise a practice session or a race upon the order of
the clerk of the course.
It will normally be used when double waved yellow flags are needed on any section of track
and competitors or officials may be in danger, but the circumstances are not such as to
warrant use of the safety car itself.
40.2 When the order is given to initiate the VSC procedure a message "VSC DEPLOYED" will be sent
to all teams via the official messaging system and all FIA light panels will display “VSC”.
40.3 No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed
potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the VSC
procedure is in use. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit
entry or the pit lane.
40.4 When initiated during a race, no car may enter the pits whilst the VSC procedure is in use
unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres.
40.5 All competing cars must reduce speed and stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at
least once in each marshalling sector (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track
between each of the FIA light panels). In addition, any driver entering the pit lane whilst the
VSC procedure is in use must be above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at the first safety
car line as he enters the pit lane.
All cars must also be above this minimum time when the FIA light panels change to green (see
40.7 below).
When initiated during a race, the stewards may impose either of the penalties under Article
38.3a), b), c) or d) on any driver who fails to stay above the minimum time as required by the
above.
40.6 With the exception of the cases listed under a) to d) below, no driver may overtake another
car on the track whilst the VSC procedure is in use.
The exceptions are :
a) When entering the pits a driver may pass another car remaining on the track after he
has reached the first safety car line.
b) When leaving the pits a driver may overtake, or be overtaken by, another car on the
track before he reaches the second safety car line.
c) Whilst in the pit entry, pit lane or pit exit a driver may overtake another car which is also
in one of these three areas.
d) If any car slows with an obvious problem.
40.7 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to end the VSC procedure the message "VSC
ENDING" will be sent to all teams via the official messaging system and, at any time between
10 and 15 seconds later, “VSC” on the FIA light panels will change to green and drivers may
continue the session or continue racing immediately. After 30 seconds the green lights will be
extinguished.
40.8 Each lap completed whist the VSC procedure is in use during a race will be counted as a race
lap.
Thanks and goodnight
40) VIRTUAL SAFETY CAR (VSC)
40.1 The VSC procedure may be initiated to neutralise a practice session or a race upon the order of
the clerk of the course.
It will normally be used when double waved yellow flags are needed on any section of track
and competitors or officials may be in danger, but the circumstances are not such as to
warrant use of the safety car itself.
40.2 When the order is given to initiate the VSC procedure a message "VSC DEPLOYED" will be sent
to all teams via the official messaging system and all FIA light panels will display “VSC”.
40.3 No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed
potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the VSC
procedure is in use. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit
entry or the pit lane.
40.4 When initiated during a race, no car may enter the pits whilst the VSC procedure is in use
unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres.
40.5 All competing cars must reduce speed and stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at
least once in each marshalling sector (a marshalling sector is defined as the section of track
between each of the FIA light panels). In addition, any driver entering the pit lane whilst the
VSC procedure is in use must be above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU at the first safety
car line as he enters the pit lane.
All cars must also be above this minimum time when the FIA light panels change to green (see
40.7 below).
When initiated during a race, the stewards may impose either of the penalties under Article
38.3a), b), c) or d) on any driver who fails to stay above the minimum time as required by the
above.
40.6 With the exception of the cases listed under a) to d) below, no driver may overtake another
car on the track whilst the VSC procedure is in use.
The exceptions are :
a) When entering the pits a driver may pass another car remaining on the track after he
has reached the first safety car line.
b) When leaving the pits a driver may overtake, or be overtaken by, another car on the
track before he reaches the second safety car line.
c) Whilst in the pit entry, pit lane or pit exit a driver may overtake another car which is also
in one of these three areas.
d) If any car slows with an obvious problem.
40.7 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to end the VSC procedure the message "VSC
ENDING" will be sent to all teams via the official messaging system and, at any time between
10 and 15 seconds later, “VSC” on the FIA light panels will change to green and drivers may
continue the session or continue racing immediately. After 30 seconds the green lights will be
extinguished.
40.8 Each lap completed whist the VSC procedure is in use during a race will be counted as a race
lap.
Vettel "open" to having Ricciardo at Ferrari
Doubt it very much unless he signs a number 2 contract.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/892469/1/vettel-open...
Doubt it very much unless he signs a number 2 contract.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/892469/1/vettel-open...
Car-Matt said:
Stuff
Cut back on the steroids. The FIA has no definition in the regulations of what they mean by neutralise, my interpretation may be the same as the FIA's, it may not be, as they haven't defined what it means that is up for debate.
What we do know is under the VSC you are not allowed to take any penalties or do any car repairs, which suggests its supposed to provide no benefit to a competitor, something it does in the scenario of taking a pit stop for tyres.
There is a fundamental contradiction in how this rule operates based on the above.
jsf said:
Car-Matt said:
Stuff
Cut back on the steroids. Some weird blinkered stuff
Edited by Car-Matt on Wednesday 28th March 16:57
jsf said:
Car-Matt said:
Stuff
Cut back on the steroids. The FIA has no definition in the regulations of what they mean by neutralise, my interpretation may be the same as the FIA's, it may not be, as they haven't defined what it means that is up for debate.
What we do know is under the VSC you are not allowed to take any penalties or do any car repairs, which suggests its supposed to provide no benefit to a competitor, something it does in the scenario of taking a pit stop for tyres.
There is a fundamental contradiction in how this rule operates based on the above.
Seems pretty clear to me. In what way is it contradictory?
It might not like it but there are plenty of other rules that allow the possibility of advantage in some ways and not others.
In fact that’s what rules do; I’m sure the teams are all aware of that.
Which is why Hamilton/Mercedes have accepted their error in losing out this time.
I'm not ignoring anything.
I very much doubt the FIA's intent on writing the rule was to enable an advantage to be gained that would change the result of a race.
A fairer system would be the one used in WEC and introduced into this years MSA rules where they have short speed restriction zones that just cover the danger area.
I very much doubt the FIA's intent on writing the rule was to enable an advantage to be gained that would change the result of a race.
A fairer system would be the one used in WEC and introduced into this years MSA rules where they have short speed restriction zones that just cover the danger area.
REALIST123 said:
‘40.4 When initiated during a race, no car may enter the pits whilst the VSC procedure is in use unless it is for the purpose of changing tyres.’
Seems pretty clear to me. In what way is it contradictory?
It might not like it but there are plenty of other rules that allow the possibility of advantage in some ways and not others.
In fact that’s what rules do; I’m sure the teams are all aware of that.
Which is why Hamilton/Mercedes have accepted their error in losing out this time.
Exactly Seems pretty clear to me. In what way is it contradictory?
It might not like it but there are plenty of other rules that allow the possibility of advantage in some ways and not others.
In fact that’s what rules do; I’m sure the teams are all aware of that.
Which is why Hamilton/Mercedes have accepted their error in losing out this time.
The tyre stops are deliberately in there to introduce some random element and give the strategists another dimension to consider, exactly the reason you have stops allowed under normal safety car conditions.
If they wanted to stop anyone gaining an advantage they'd just write the ability to enter the pitlane out of the rules. F1 would be far too boring and predictable without these little nuances and the rule-makers know it and play on it when writing rules.
A couple of armchair experts on a car forum aren't going to suddenly find a gaping hole in the rules of one of the most lucrative sports in the world..........
jsf said:
I'm not ignoring anything.
I very much doubt the FIA's intent on writing the rule was to enable an advantage to be gained that would change the result of a race.
A fairer system would be the one used in WEC and introduced into this years MSA rules where they have short speed restriction zones that just cover the danger area.
You are ignoring parts and your doubt is not right, the ability to gain advantage is specifically written in to the rule where it says you can stop for tyres. I very much doubt the FIA's intent on writing the rule was to enable an advantage to be gained that would change the result of a race.
A fairer system would be the one used in WEC and introduced into this years MSA rules where they have short speed restriction zones that just cover the danger area.
Car-Matt said:
Hungrymc said:
So people gain an advantage under full SC. You get to close the gaps and even unlap yourself.... huge advantage.
The only advantage under VSC I can see is the potential pit stop. I’ve been thinking it is what it is, one of those things, no need to change anything......
BUT does the pit stopper get to fire off at least one sector at pretty much racing speed if there are no cars to pass? .
The only advantage under VSC I can see is the potential pit stop. I’ve been thinking it is what it is, one of those things, no need to change anything......
BUT does the pit stopper get to fire off at least one sector at pretty much racing speed if there are no cars to pass? .
No
the VSC limits their speed on all parts of the track that are governed by the double waved yellows, so thats the safty control there, the saftey control in the pits is the pit lane limiter.
There is no opportunity to 'speed' under VSC/Double waved Yellows anywhere unless i've missed something?
Do they publish what the governed speed is? (It makes sense that there would be one, but I’ve never seen it stated or noticed it under VSC or double yellows for that matter - probably my observations lacking)
And do they publish what zones / sectors will have the timing threshold? I guess they must as everyone has to adhere to it.
Hungrymc said:
Thank you, I’m not well read on the regs, only commenting on what I think I’ve seen.
Do they publish what the governed speed is? (It makes sense that there would be one, but I’ve never seen it stated or noticed it under VSC or double yellows for that matter - probably my observations lacking)
And do they publish what zones / sectors will have the timing threshold? I guess they must as everyone has to adhere to it.
The zones are the marshalling zones, they are small as each marshal can see the next marshal along so there is always a line of sight around the whole circuit. Not sure on the speed but they have to stick to a time through each sectorDo they publish what the governed speed is? (It makes sense that there would be one, but I’ve never seen it stated or noticed it under VSC or double yellows for that matter - probably my observations lacking)
And do they publish what zones / sectors will have the timing threshold? I guess they must as everyone has to adhere to it.
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