Discussion
The Hypno-Toad said:
This is a little concerning...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/30/my...
I wonder what all that's about.
Maybe somebody forget to pay when they got all those Freddos……..
Possibly related to how RD was paid off?https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/30/my...
I wonder what all that's about.
Maybe somebody forget to pay when they got all those Freddos……..
The Hypno-Toad said:
This is a little concerning...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/30/my...
I wonder what all that's about.
Maybe somebody forget to pay when they got all those Freddos……..
Problem is more things other than making a quick F1 car to distract management, also might put off new sponsors? Doesnt sound very good but could come to nothing.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/30/my...
I wonder what all that's about.
Maybe somebody forget to pay when they got all those Freddos……..
revrange said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
This is a little concerning...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/30/my...
I wonder what all that's about.
Maybe somebody forget to pay when they got all those Freddos……..
Problem is more things other than making a quick F1 car to distract management, also might put off new sponsors? Doesnt sound very good but could come to nothing.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/06/30/my...
I wonder what all that's about.
Maybe somebody forget to pay when they got all those Freddos……..
MartG said:
Could be something simple e.g. one of their dealers being investigates by HMRC which wouldn't affect McLaren directly
"“information concerning certain third-party companies and concerning executive and other persons who have been, or are currently, associated with the group”I think that implies something much closer than a franchised dealer? In my experience that would imply a board member, operational director or someone who owns a stake in the company.
thegreenhell said:
ralphrj said:
Frimley111R said:
Nice insight. Selling of heritage items won't make much of a dent in the F1 budget deficit.
Hard to say, at the moment we don't know which cars are for sale (or the ones sold last year but I wonder if McLaren were the sellers of the Senna MP4/8 sold at auction recently).Senna's MP4/4 might be worth £10m?
Le Mans winning Ueno Clinic F1 GTR £20m?
The problem is that once they are sold you can't sell them again.
I think the Le Mans GTR would be more than £20m. A lot more. F1 road cars are not far off that now.
1989 - MP4/5 - 8 made
1990 - MP4/5B - 7 made (but how many were just chassis carried over from the year before I don't know)
1991 - MP4/6 - 11 made
1992 - MP4/7A - 8 made
1993 - MP4/8A - 8 made
1994 - MP4/9 - 8 made
1995 - MP4/10(B/C) - 8 made
1996 - MP4/11 - unsure
1997 - MP4/12 - at least 5
1998 - MP4/13 - 7 I think
1999 - MP4/14 - at least 5
So plenty of cars there. I know McLaren Manchester has an MP4/5 on the wall of their showroom. Back in 2011/12 the plan was to empty Unit 2 and have cars in the different showrooms around the world but I'm not sure how many ended up leaving so most will still be in bits in that warehouse.
Some are at the Donington collection, one of Brundle's MP4/9's (#04) is at Beaulieu with another MP4/9 having been sold privately (at least I think so because Cars International restored it in 2013, Fritz van Eerd in the Netherlands has a few and United Autosports/Zak Brown has two if his website is to be believed. We know Bernie bought Senna's Monaco MP4/8 the other month.
There are a few others in museums around the world like the two big ones in France (Loheac and Mulhouse on either side of the country). Think there's been two in Sinsheim (an MP4/9 and an MP4-12) but the last picture I have seen of either there is dated 2008 so I think they've been moved on. They have an 'MP4' which looks like a complete bitsa made up of not really much actual McLaren listed on their site but nothing else so I presume it's gone. How many of these are actually just show cars rather than race chassis I have no idea.
Peugeot have an MP4/9 too. Honda have a couple of the early ones as well that they demonstrate occasionally so how many McLaren actually have in their possession is unclear. Mercedes have at least one of every chassis they powered too.
Remember too that once Honda fizzled out they had a similar nadir for a few years before the Newey/Mercedes combination brought them success again so the cars from that time won't be worth as much as you'd hope if you needed money and the cars from about 2002 onwards weren't very successful either until Lewis won his title and after that still not great, so all those cars might not be worth as much as they need.
The F1 GTR's are hard to say. The Le Mans 1995 winner would easily top £30m IMO but the LARK 1996 GTR (#04R) would be less than £20m and I'd hazard a guess at the Gulf Le Mans 1997 class winner (#20R) would probably be less than £20m too but the likes of Erik (peloton25) and Greg (hurstg01) plus perhaps flemke too would know a lot more about valuations than me. The LM would be interesting because LM's go for a lot anyway and it's the prototype that McLaren have kept all this time. I suspect a certain current F1 driver might still want it even though he won his required 3 championships with someone else so there's one buyer at least. I think the prototype GT would go for an awful lot as well because it's one of three versions of an already very expensive and rare car.
I'd quite like to see the collection in Unit 2 all built up again and sold off as long as the cars were exhibited or demonstrated at GFOS, etc but as others have said it's a shame they're having to sell the family silver to make ends meet.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 2nd July 17:47
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 2nd July 18:05
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 2nd July 18:10
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 2nd July 19:20
F1GTRUeno said:
thegreenhell said:
ralphrj said:
Frimley111R said:
Nice insight. Selling of heritage items won't make much of a dent in the F1 budget deficit.
Hard to say, at the moment we don't know which cars are for sale (or the ones sold last year but I wonder if McLaren were the sellers of the Senna MP4/8 sold at auction recently).Senna's MP4/4 might be worth £10m?
Le Mans winning Ueno Clinic F1 GTR £20m?
The problem is that once they are sold you can't sell them again.
I think the Le Mans GTR would be more than £20m. A lot more. F1 road cars are not far off that now.
1989 - MP4/5 - 8 made
1990 - MP4/5B - 7 made (but how many were just chassis carried over from the year before I don't know)
1991 - MP4/6 - 11 made
1992 - MP4/7A - 8 made
1993 - MP4/8A - 8 made
1994 - MP4/9 - 8 made
1995 - MP4/10(B/C) - 8 made
1996 - MP4/11 - unsure
1997 - MP4/12 - at least 5
1998 - MP4/13 - 7 I think
1999 - MP4/14 - at least 5
So plenty of cars there. I know McLaren Manchester has an MP4/5 on the wall of their showroom. Back in 2011/12 the plan was to empty Unit 2 and have cars in the different showrooms around the world but I'm not sure how many ended up leaving so most will still be in bits in that warehouse.
Some are at the Donington collection, one of Brundle's MP4/9's (#04) is at Beaulieu with another MP4/9 having been sold privately (at least I think so because Cars International restored it in 2013, Fritz van Eerd in the Netherlands has a few and United Autosports/Zak Brown has two if his website is to be believed. We know Bernie bought Senna's Monaco MP4/8 the other month.
There are a few others in museums around the world like the two big ones in France (Loheac and Mulhouse on either side of the country). Think there's been two in Sinsheim (an MP4/9 and an MP4-12) but the last picture I have seen of either there is dated 2008 so I think they've been moved on. They have an 'MP4' which looks like a complete bitsa made up of not really much actual McLaren listed on their site but nothing else so I presume it's gone. How many of these are actually just show cars rather than race chassis I have no idea.
Peugeot have an MP4/9 too. Honda have a couple of the early ones as well that they demonstrate occasionally so how many McLaren actually have in their possession is unclear. Mercedes have at least one of every chassis they powered too.
Remember too that once Honda fizzled out they had a similar nadir for a few years before the Newey/Mercedes combination brought them success again so the cars from that time won't be worth as much as you'd hope if you needed money and the cars from about 2002 onwards weren't very successful either until Lewis won his title and after that still not great, so all those cars might not be worth as much as they need.
The F1 GTR's are hard to say. The Le Mans 1995 winner would easily top £30m IMO but the LARK 1996 GTR (#04R) would be less than £20m and I'd hazard a guess at the Gulf Le Mans 1997 class winner (#20R) would probably be less than £20m too but the likes of Erik (peloton25) and Greg (hurstg01) plus perhaps flemke too would know a lot more about valuations than me. The LM would be interesting because LM's go for a lot anyway and it's the prototype that McLaren have kept all this time. I suspect a certain current F1 driver might still want it even though he won his required 3 championships with someone else so there's one buyer at least. I think the prototype GT would go for an awful lot as well because it's one of three versions of an already very expensive and rare car.
I'd quite like to see the collection in Unit 2 all built up again and sold off as long as the cars were exhibited or demonstrated at GFOS, etc but as others have said it's a shame they're having to sell the family silver to make ends meet.
If, and bouncing off your point that McLaren are indeed selling off the “family silver” to get through this phase then it is a sorry state of affairs. Much, much bigger companies than McLaren have come and gone, been the focus of an HBR case study or threshed around in the corporate limelight - organisational decay can hit anything. Nothing is preordained for survival. Least of all a medium sized concern ‘focused’ on supercars and a heavily politicised and niche sport.
I think most people will - correctly for the most part - only look at the performance on the pitch for whether or not things are ok. “The engine, aero, whatever. Fix that and they’ll make the gap close with the front runners etc”. But in reality you’ve got to have an effective, singularly focussed, happy, well organised, flexible, nimble, disciplined group - core - of people to drive that performance out. So there’s the statistical results weekend to weekend to point to, but all the gossip, Freddos, a sudden Whitmarsh opinion, matrix or not to matrix, the Boullier/Brown (in)competence-omometer, “a U.K. govt investigation”....it’s endless, and taken in the whole, horribly points to a structure and organisation that’s really not at harmony with itself. Companies at the top of their game look to those externally as tight and sharp. McLaren doesn’t really exhibit that at present.
Is McLaren in the doom loop? I don’t know. There’s too many unsubstantiated POVs being bandied around as to what the culture is really like within and lack of specificity over many issues. But, in my opinion, looking from the outside, there seem to be multiple afflictions - what actually is McLaren, what’s its ultimate focus (F1, engineering, sports cars, everything!); questions over operational and executive leadership (my impression of Brown is he’s a bit of a buffoon, great at schmoozing with Bratches and co and saying the right thing, but Peter Principle has well and truly kicked in when asked to run the concern); the clarity of vision of the Bahrainis, TAG/Ojjeh etc and now Latifi vs straight shareholder value/return; is the culture there too straight and set or can innovation and discourse thrive? Forget Adrian Newey himself, but if there is someone of the next generation of Newey/Murray/Barnard/Postlethwaite talented engineer/designer/disruptor in that organisation, do they feel it’s the place for their talent to thrive or is it constrained? Etcetera....
Very interesting topic though I suppose it’s part of the jigsaw as to what makes F1 such an interesting, complex and multi-layered “sport”. Williams F1: now there’s another one with a range of fascinating conundrums and challenges!
Apologies for the ramble. I always follow the F1 threads but normally rather read than comment.
F1GTRUeno said:
From what I know of the 89-99 cars from researching on the web.
1989 - MP4/5 - 8 made
1990 - MP4/5B - 7 made (but how many were just chassis carried over from the year before I don't know)
1991 - MP4/6 - 11 made
1992 - MP4/7A - 8 made
1993 - MP4/8A - 8 made
1994 - MP4/9 - 8 made
1995 - MP4/10(B/C) - 8 made
1996 - MP4/11 - unsure
1997 - MP4/12 - at least 5
1998 - MP4/13 - 7 I think
1999 - MP4/14 - at least 5
I can extend this list for the period 2007-2016 as McLaren changed the way the historic assets are reported in their financial statements.1989 - MP4/5 - 8 made
1990 - MP4/5B - 7 made (but how many were just chassis carried over from the year before I don't know)
1991 - MP4/6 - 11 made
1992 - MP4/7A - 8 made
1993 - MP4/8A - 8 made
1994 - MP4/9 - 8 made
1995 - MP4/10(B/C) - 8 made
1996 - MP4/11 - unsure
1997 - MP4/12 - at least 5
1998 - MP4/13 - 7 I think
1999 - MP4/14 - at least 5
2007 MP4-22 - 4
2008 MP4-23 - 3
2009 MP4-24 - 4
2010 MP4-25 - 4
2011 MP4-26 - 4
2012 MP4-27 - 4
2013 MP4-28 - 4
2014 MP4-29/MP4-29H - 4
2015 MP4-30 - 3
2016 MP4-31 - 3
At the end of 2016 the collection stood at:
150 racing cars
6 F1 road cars
4 historic vehicles (Porsche 911 mule with the TAG engine? Bruce McLaren's Austin 7?)
20 spare F1 racing car monocoques
I think any supervisory board, given the state of the finances would be asking:
- Are we a racing company, or a museum?
- What is the right balance of retention of assets vs disposal for profit?
- What assets can be realised to then re-invest into the team?
rev-erend said:
If you were a museum .. you would at least allow the public to visit the collection. I must ask Neil Trudle that question next time I see him down the local pub.
Please do It would seem a good way to monetise the assets. Given the site, you could charge quite a lot for a McLaren experience day and museum tour? Not game changing amounts but an extra revenue stream?
ralphrj said:
Eric Boullier has resigned apparently.
It seems so... https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/boullier-resign...Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff