Discussion
Persuading Eric B to leave is a good thing but they keep insisting the issue is with the management and not with the 800 staff..
From my point of view of F1 teams is that its always the technical team that determines how fast the car is..
They need to look at the newbie team HAAS - how are they so fast compare to McLaren.
From my point of view of F1 teams is that its always the technical team that determines how fast the car is..
They need to look at the newbie team HAAS - how are they so fast compare to McLaren.
Dr Z said:
telecat said:
Good Now get rid of Brown.
No, please don't. Brown is a good egg, but he's somewhat at the mercy of the real technical people under him.This new structure is better but I'm not convinced about Simon Roberts' position.
Maybe uncharitably but he doesn’t come across as a particularly effective guy for this challenge. I’m not sure I agree on his position and capability being at the mercy of technical guys beneath him - it’s not an argument that washes at any mid-large size organisation. Companies may be stacked with people with soft and technical skills across the spectrum and and a C-suite guy won’t be expected to know them all, but when it comes to grasping what’s going on - what’s materially important to the running and performance of the firm, if you’re not on it, you’re out.
I know a FTSE CEO who got the can for less woolly answers than Brown trots out :|
Brown strikes me as a guy who’s good in his niche and probably a fair networker - all the skills that mean he should have ended up more as a sidekick for Bratches at Liberty. Canapés and schmoozing with the latest startup who wants to advertise their presence at a race.
But what skills does he have to really lead a team of engineers, designers, drivers, etc not just to a high performance point but out of an obvious trough? Bottom line, it’s turnaround management that needs to happen and when you scratch away at most people’s resumes they don’t have it.
Genuinely keen to know and hear another point of view.
McLaren has explained how its Formula 1's team new structure will work following Eric Boullier's resignation ahead of the British Grand Prix...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-explain...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-explain...
Dr Z said:
telecat said:
Good Now get rid of Brown.
No, please don't. Brown is a good egg, but he's somewhat at the mercy of the real technical people under him.This new structure is better but I'm not convinced about Simon Roberts' position.
tigerkoi said:
Dr Z said:
telecat said:
Good Now get rid of Brown.
No, please don't. Brown is a good egg, but he's somewhat at the mercy of the real technical people under him.This new structure is better but I'm not convinced about Simon Roberts' position.
Maybe uncharitably but he doesn’t come across as a particularly effective guy for this challenge. I’m not sure I agree on his position and capability being at the mercy of technical guys beneath him - it’s not an argument that washes at any mid-large size organisation. Companies may be stacked with people with soft and technical skills across the spectrum and and a C-suite guy won’t be expected to know them all, but when it comes to grasping what’s going on - what’s materially important to the running and performance of the firm, if you’re not on it, you’re out.
I know a FTSE CEO who got the can for less woolly answers than Brown trots out :|
Brown strikes me as a guy who’s good in his niche and probably a fair networker - all the skills that mean he should have ended up more as a sidekick for Bratches at Liberty. Canapés and schmoozing with the latest startup who wants to advertise their presence at a race.
But what skills does he have to really lead a team of engineers, designers, drivers, etc not just to a high performance point but out of an obvious trough? Bottom line, it’s turnaround management that needs to happen and when you scratch away at most people’s resumes they don’t have it.
Genuinely keen to know and hear another point of view.
At some point you have trust what the technical heads tell you, because F1 has become a lot more complex than when RD held office when someone at that level of ability can make reasonable judgements on the state of play about the machines being churned out by the factory. I have a high regard for what RD achieved but even he was at the mercy of his technical team, and recent history shows how hopelessly misguided he was.
An example of how misguided Brown was; after Friday practice at the recent Canadian GP, he came out and said Q3 should be possible only for McLaren to be knocked out in Q1. Could he have spotted that there is a fundamental mismatch between parts manufactured at the factory and how it performs on track? Could he have seen this coming? Did he have the power to do something about it, if he did?
This new structure, one of the old guard fired, Brown is starting to crack the whip and it reminds of when Marchionne got stuck into the Ferrari team. There is talent in the team--Morris heading the chassis and Prodromou on the aero side is a lot cleaner than when they had Goss alongside these two. Of the two remaining, I think Prodromou is under pressure to deliver. And if the new parts don't work, there is clear accountability there. There's still no clear TD-like role and the current structure is still some kind of vestige of the dreaded matrix structure from before. I can see how it could work well and I think we have to give Brown the 2nd half of this year and the next car to see if he really is the man to lead McLaren into the post-2020 era.
Paul578 said:
+1 agreed Dr Z. Brown has not got a magic wand to resolve the performance issues with the car, McLaren are currently hamstrung not only by their missing / malfunctioning tools and techniques but by the present restrictive rules on development & testing. It's a pity FOM / Liberty can not take a pragmatic approach as shown by DORNA with MotoGP with the availability of concessions, I'm sure even if a punitive levy was imposed that teams like McLaren & Williams would jump at the chance for good old fashioned circuit testing in order to help themselves out of their predicaments.
Indeed, this is a major issue for McLaren at the moment and some teams are apparently calling for even less testing in the next two years. This will be bad news if ratified, and if McLaren still haven't managed to get on top of their issues.Some of the experimental parts they tested at Austria worked as expected and should see them being introduced at Hungary. It's a big race for the team, and will give us the first indication as to whether McLaren can get more competitive going forwards.
Frimley111R said:
That sounds like a good idea. I wonder if they have even thought about it?
I guess the risk is unintended consequences. e.g. at race 5, a midfield team might withdraw from the race in order to ensure they get the test session, gambling that they will gain more by doing that than by finishing say, 11th and 12th.ghost83 said:
It’s about time tbh! Was no good at lotus neither
Lotus/Renault were a cracking team that arguably punched above its weight. Is it any wonder Ron snapped up him up? If you're looking for a villain in the team then its Gerard Lopez with the money running dry.rev-erend said:
They need to look at the newbie team HAAS - how are they so fast compare to McLaren.
Haas is Ferrari in sheep's clothing!Vaud said:
Frimley111R said:
That sounds like a good idea. I wonder if they have even thought about it?
I guess the risk is unintended consequences. e.g. at race 5, a midfield team might withdraw from the race in order to ensure they get the test session, gambling that they will gain more by doing that than by finishing say, 11th and 12th.Kraken said:
skinny said:
Not being funny but what does (or can) boullier actually do?
He's won with every motorsport team he has been involved in restructuring apart from McLaren.In early 2003 he became manager and tech director at DAMS, where they ran Formula Renault V6 (2nd in constructors 2003, 3rd in 2004). Then he did A1 GP team France where they got 1st 05-06, and then 4th in subsequent two years.
Then he did driver management for a year at the end of 2008.
Then went to renault F1 early 2010 as team principle. They finished 5th. Then Renault kinda pulled out and they became Lotus Renault. They finished 5th in 2011. He remained team principle of Lotus for 2012 and 2013 where they finished 4th each year.
In 2014 he was appointed Racing Director for McLaren.
Going back to my original question, I still have no idea what he was supposed to be doing.
Irrelevant now I guess.
Dr Z said:
tigerkoi said:
Dr Z said:
telecat said:
Good Now get rid of Brown.
No, please don't. Brown is a good egg, but he's somewhat at the mercy of the real technical people under him.This new structure is better but I'm not convinced about Simon Roberts' position.
Maybe uncharitably but he doesn’t come across as a particularly effective guy for this challenge. I’m not sure I agree on his position and capability being at the mercy of technical guys beneath him - it’s not an argument that washes at any mid-large size organisation. Companies may be stacked with people with soft and technical skills across the spectrum and and a C-suite guy won’t be expected to know them all, but when it comes to grasping what’s going on - what’s materially important to the running and performance of the firm, if you’re not on it, you’re out.
I know a FTSE CEO who got the can for less woolly answers than Brown trots out :|
Brown strikes me as a guy who’s good in his niche and probably a fair networker - all the skills that mean he should have ended up more as a sidekick for Bratches at Liberty. Canapés and schmoozing with the latest startup who wants to advertise their presence at a race.
But what skills does he have to really lead a team of engineers, designers, drivers, etc not just to a high performance point but out of an obvious trough? Bottom line, it’s turnaround management that needs to happen and when you scratch away at most people’s resumes they don’t have it.
Genuinely keen to know and hear another point of view.
At some point you have trust what the technical heads tell you, because F1 has become a lot more complex than when RD held office when someone at that level of ability can make reasonable judgements on the state of play about the machines being churned out by the factory. I have a high regard for what RD achieved but even he was at the mercy of his technical team, and recent history shows how hopelessly misguided he was.
An example of how misguided Brown was; after Friday practice at the recent Canadian GP, he came out and said Q3 should be possible only for McLaren to be knocked out in Q1. Could he have spotted that there is a fundamental mismatch between parts manufactured at the factory and how it performs on track? Could he have seen this coming? Did he have the power to do something about it, if he did?
This new structure, one of the old guard fired, Brown is starting to crack the whip and it reminds of when Marchionne got stuck into the Ferrari team. There is talent in the team--Morris heading the chassis and Prodromou on the aero side is a lot cleaner than when they had Goss alongside these two. Of the two remaining, I think Prodromou is under pressure to deliver. And if the new parts don't work, there is clear accountability there. There's still no clear TD-like role and the current structure is still some kind of vestige of the dreaded matrix structure from before. I can see how it could work well and I think we have to give Brown the 2nd half of this year and the next car to see if he really is the man to lead McLaren into the post-2020 era.
You are right: in any structure change made in one place takes time to percolate and become effective, so seeing how things shape up into 2019 is probably more equitable and the likely angle the Bahrainis, Ojjeh and co see things. The place is in turmoil and chop/change only exacerbates things. But without coming across as too corporate black or white, his performance now on in must surely be under closer focus.
Once again, thanks for the detailed response and I’ve soaked it up a few times, but on your point about ZB still being semi-beholden to the engineers (blinded, bewitched
), without reverting to brutal corporate stereotype isn’t this why when someone gets planted into the hot seat we quickly do the whole ‘you, you and you, out’ scene then rapidly get into bed the right hand men/women who can handle the disciplines and the exec decisions they then give you to yay/nay you quickly and implicitly trust? But then as you say, Browns appointment and subsequent management rearranging probably blurs him being able to do that....I can fully appreciate the engineering discipline in F1 isn’t simple and certainly the production aspect won’t easily alliterate to how things are done in other industry sectors. I get that. But aside from another year - 2019 - of poor performance, what I suspect will really cook anyone’s goose is it having to be pointed out that everyone is playing under the same (restrictions) rules, and other teams are winning regardless....
It seems if you could boil it down, time in F1, timing of announcements, contract renewals, production, etc is the most crucial thing. Blow the timing of one decision or be behind the delivery of a certain part for testing and the ramifications could last multiple seasons. Interesting sport. Brutal.
Just like in a football team you cant fire the whole squad so you boot out the manager and hope the next one can do better.
I guess something had to change really and maybe he had lost the trust of the troops.
I guess now with the french engine failing to push them up the grid it was all the french geezers fault.
The new rules should help them we hope.
Also that bloody car is awful to look at on the TV. A few stripes or graphics should help. They are quite well funder really and
the Middle east crew would only blow their money on some other rubbish anyway.
You dont see EJ laying in to them anymore as his old team is heading for disaster.
I guess something had to change really and maybe he had lost the trust of the troops.
I guess now with the french engine failing to push them up the grid it was all the french geezers fault.
The new rules should help them we hope.
Also that bloody car is awful to look at on the TV. A few stripes or graphics should help. They are quite well funder really and
the Middle east crew would only blow their money on some other rubbish anyway.
You dont see EJ laying in to them anymore as his old team is heading for disaster.
Dr Z said:
No, please don't. Brown is a good egg, but he's somewhat at the mercy of the real technical people under him.
.
Remains to be seen if ZB is a good egg imo. He was brought in initially primarily to bring in a major sponsor to Mclaren and hasn't exactly been successful at that. His main achievements/background have been in marketing not managing a large race team attempting to be competing at the sharp end of the grid. Nothing suggests that he's up to that job even if Mclaren are as you have also pointed out in greater trouble than merely the chap in charge. .
isaldiri said:
Remains to be seen if ZB is a good egg imo. He was brought in initially primarily to bring in a major sponsor to Mclaren and hasn't exactly been successful at that. His main achievements/background have been in marketing not managing a large race team attempting to be competing at the sharp end of the grid. Nothing suggests that he's up to that job even if Mclaren are as you have also pointed out in greater trouble than merely the chap in charge.
Nope, no experience of running a team that can regularly win races... https://www.unitedautosports.com/about-us/team
Apart from that one anyway.
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