The Official 2018 German Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

[Dr Z]

StevieBee said:

Dr Z said:

ajprice said:

Lewis winning from 14th is the lowest grid position to a win since Alonso winning from 15th in Singapore in 2008. That race win was ever so slightly engineered though , so what's the next lowest before that?

Michael Schumacher - Spa - 1995 - From 16th on the grid
Kimi Raikkonen - Suzuka - 2005 - 17th
Rubens Barrichello - Hockenheim - 2000 - 18th

Although he didn't start from last, Button won in Canada in 2012 - I think - having been bumped to last, twice (IIRC)

Also, didn't Lewis fall to last in Monaco in 2008 on the first lap and went on to win?

You must be thinking of Canada 2011. He went from last to first in 30 laps.

Hamilton fell to 5th position I believe.

Mark-C said:

John Watson made it from 22nd in the US GP West in 1983 ... impossible these days given the size of grids.

Lauda finished 2nd in the other McLaren from 23rd!

Indeed, this is the furthest anyone has started to go on to win. Other wins from back (Watson has one more):

Jackie Stewart - Kyalami - 1973 - 16th
John Watson - Detroit - 1982 - 17th

[Dr Z]

travel is dangerous said:

Deesee said:

AlexS said:

The magic in the Ferrari is coming from the MGU-H, which is passing energy directly to the MGU-K and bypassing the battery. There are no limits on the amount that can be transferred this way, the only limit is the 160Kw of the motor itself when deploying it.

I thought they were restricted on how much energy they could send via the “h” (although in theory the production could be unlimited).

I also thought they were restricted in deploying/transferring the electrical energy to 4mj (or 33 seconds a lap).

They must have found a way/loophole in the technical regulations (but may fall foul of the sporting regulations). Very clever, I wonder if perhaps it’s to do with the twin battery arrangement, have they found a way to harvest and deploy the energy store in tandem via the “k” and “h” and power the turbo charger from the “h”.

Interesting stuff!

There are limits on total energy recovered and stored to the battery per lap but nothing to stop you routing starting from MGU H to MGU K.

The H -> K routing was obvious from the rules, so I don't think Ferrari are doing anything Merc aren't doing there.

Also, anything that involves the battery has a bottleneck, so I don't quite follow how the twin battery setup can yield more deployment if at the end, the energy had to be deployed from the battery.

Need to get back to the regs.

[Dr Z]

Deesee said:

I have had a quick read through.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1...

and it almost contradicts its self.

"The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of the pressure charging system. The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch."

then

"An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."

So how could you transfer this without the use of the battery "ES" which is limited.

I think it's not worded well; meant to say unlimited energy flow allowed from H -> ES and/or H -> K

The energy flow diagram in the regs support this:

[Dr Z]

Deesee said:

Seek said:

Dr Z said:

Also, anything that involves the battery has a bottleneck, so I don't quite follow how the twin battery setup can yield more deployment if at the end, the energy had to be deployed from the battery.

A twin battery setup could be used in the following unsporting manner.

Battery 2 is used solely for 'powering' the MGU-H, which then directly or indirectly reroutes power to MGU-K.
This would not be limited by the regulations for energy transfer other than the minimum/maximum state of charge of 4MJ.
The energy flow from ES -> MGU-H could be routed to anywhere in MGU-H, pressure charging system or engine to be 'regenerated' and then routed to MGU-K.

If one were cynical it could be claimed that battery 2 is in fact part of MGU-H and fed by battery 1, thereby sidestepping the regulations on minimum/maximum state of charge of battery 2 and energy transfer from ES -> MGU-K.

Interesting, and could be the mystery lever on Vettels stearing wheel.

Vettels Ferrari seems to pull away at 250kph + according to the Merc/red bull GPS. If they have found a way to retain excess MGU h in the engine management once the ES is full and deliver the excess on demand, but apparently it’s just not stored “anywhere”.

Nice hypothesis, Seek. I struggle to see how this is unsporting however.

Satisfying the 4Mj SOC regulation is straight forward, no? I missed that the flow pathway from ES>H>K is unlimited as well.

This pathway is unlimited:

Pressure charging system>MGU-H>ES>MGU-H>MGU-K.

[Dr Z]

hairyben said:

Dr Z, do you any examples of Lewis ever being critical of ferrari "tactics"?

TBH the more you look at it the more this isn't a cut'n'dried favouring of Lewis anyway, like many have said a "bring both cars home" order at late and risky stage of the race is something many teams have done in the past with no agenda but preserving positions.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/19485176/sebastian-vettel-clearly-ferrari-no1-driver

This is one example. Think back to Austria 2016. It's standard practice to do something different with a car that's starting out of position on a faster strategy to make progress. At Austria 2016 it was Nico who made progress. Perhaps a bit too much progress as he found himself in the lead. They let them race then rather than freezing the positions.

I don't find it a big issue except when one side portrays themselves as doing the noble thing.