The Official 2018 German Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

[Mr_Thyroid]

Sam993 said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

skeeterm5 said:

Can the experts help me with something? When Kimi and Bottas came in for tyres behind the safety car how come they weren’t well down the field when the race restarted? Instead they were line astern with Hamilton.

The gap to the mid field was large - around 50s from memory - Bottas came in immediately, so no issue for him getting out ahead of everyone. For Kimi it was surely closer because he did an extra lap, but you cannot go full speed when the safety car is called - you must go at a safe speed, presumably similar speed to VSC, so this bought him time - also I think a few of the mid-field pitted to get off their inters.

But they maintained gaps (some of 30/40s) until last lap when they bunched up. I'd expect the SC to pick up the leader and the rest of grid within one lap.

Lap charts here:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/22/2018-german-gr...

A quick eyeball suggest the closing speed of those in free air compared to those immediately behind the safety car is about 40s per lap.

If the gap was 50s before the SC this would increase under the neutralised conditions (to maybe 65s??) so it would take at least a lap and a half to close up - add to this the fact that Hulkenberg did indeed pit when the safety car came out - also remember that pit stops take a lot less time when the race is neutralised.

[Eric Mc]

AlexS said:

Eric Mc said:

Yep - it was much more fun.

Who wants reliability and consistency? I don't.

I like reliability and consistency, it shows that the engineers are doing their jobs properly and understand what is going on with the cars.

Deesee said:

“Seb, Lewis is faster than you”,

Fair shout on the rear differential the extra battery harvesting via the mgu k, has to come from somewhere on that Ferrari.

The magic in the Ferrari is coming from the MGU-H, which is passing energy directly to the MGU-K and bypassing the battery. There are no limits on the amount that can be transferred this way, the only limit is the 160Kw of the motor itself when deploying it.

I don't watch motorsport to watch good engineering. I admire bridges and space rockets for that.

[NRS]

Sam993 said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

skeeterm5 said:

Can the experts help me with something? When Kimi and Bottas came in for tyres behind the safety car how come they weren’t well down the field when the race restarted? Instead they were line astern with Hamilton.

The gap to the mid field was large - around 50s from memory - Bottas came in immediately, so no issue for him getting out ahead of everyone. For Kimi it was surely closer because he did an extra lap, but you cannot go full speed when the safety car is called - you must go at a safe speed, presumably similar speed to VSC, so this bought him time - also I think a few of the mid-field pitted to get off their inters.

But they maintained gaps (some of 30/40s) until last lap when they bunched up. I'd expect the SC to pick up the leader and the rest of grid within one lap.

Remember Max who was behind those two was able to pit twice in normal conditions and still be ahead of the cars behind him.

[Sam993]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Sam993 said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

skeeterm5 said:

Can the experts help me with something? When Kimi and Bottas came in for tyres behind the safety car how come they weren’t well down the field when the race restarted? Instead they were line astern with Hamilton.

The gap to the mid field was large - around 50s from memory - Bottas came in immediately, so no issue for him getting out ahead of everyone. For Kimi it was surely closer because he did an extra lap, but you cannot go full speed when the safety car is called - you must go at a safe speed, presumably similar speed to VSC, so this bought him time - also I think a few of the mid-field pitted to get off their inters.

But they maintained gaps (some of 30/40s) until last lap when they bunched up. I'd expect the SC to pick up the leader and the rest of grid within one lap.

Lap charts here:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/22/2018-german-gr...

A quick eyeball suggest the closing speed of those in free air compared to those immediately behind the safety car is about 40s per lap.

If the gap was 50s before the SC this would increase under the neutralised conditions (to maybe 65s??) so it would take at least a lap and a half to close up - add to this the fact that Hulkenberg did indeed pit when the safety car came out - also remember that pit stops take a lot less time when the race is neutralised.

That's a cool graph. It shows that it took drivers that were in the midfield 3-4 laps to catch the SC. I'm assuming (and I'm too lazy to look up F1 regs) that once SC is deployed everyone has to slow down instead of driving at pace to catch the SC. Which is odd because one reason why SC is deployed instead of VSC is to have all drivers bunched up in order to safely do whatever needs doing on the track without risk.

[thegreenhell]

Of course everyone has to slow down once the safety car is deployed. They can't just race at full speed to catch it up. That kind of misses the point of deploying the safety car. The same minimum sector time procedure as under VSC is used, with the actual safety car going much slower so that all cars can catch up, supposedly within two laps. Obviously this may take longer if they're making pitstops during this period.

[entropy]

Derek Smith said:

entropy said:

The race could be done without tyre stops but Mansell had a wheel vibration https://motorsport.tv/embed/FmZ0ZBwu

At the time, Williams said that it was planned and that they did not expect the tyres to last. The impression most got was that the reasons he was brought in was to split the cars and to see if Piquet would get through on his, but then Williams did not want to be seen as partial.

Source?

Tyres lasting the race distance was a regular feature/expectation in the mid-80s. In 1986 Australian GP Goodyear advised teams the tyres could go the distance - oh and just remembered that Prost had a fortunate puncture in that race that won him the WDC.

Wheel vibration was mentioned in Mansell's autobiography.

This was Autosport's race report:

The Williams drivers, like virtually everyone else, had gone into the race in the expectation of going the distance on one set of Goodyears. But within 10 laps Mansell knew that was out for him. There was a worsening vibration through the steering, and he was finding it difficult to stay with Piquet. A front wheel balance weight was gone, as it turned out, but Nigel thought he might simply have blistered the tyres.

"The vibration got so bad," he relayed to the team. "I told them I was going to have to come in at some stage. We settled on lap 35, and until then I just tried to keep as close to Nelson as possible."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/4570/grand-pr...

[Sam993]

thegreenhell said:

Of course everyone has to slow down once the safety car is deployed. They can't just race at full speed to catch it up. That kind of misses the point of deploying the safety car. The same minimum sector time procedure as under VSC is used, with the actual safety car going much slower so that all cars can catch up, supposedly within two laps. Obviously this may take longer if they're making pitstops during this period.

Well yes I didn't mean going recklessly at full tilt but rather going quickly enough to catch the SC within max 2 laps as you say. I'm surprised because I don't recall similar situations where it would take 4 laps to close up. Indy/Nascar do SC's better I think as they let drivers bunch up before they open pits.

[thegreenhell]

Maybe it's because they no longer try to pick up the leader with the safety car anymore. The SC just goes straight out wherever the leader is, and if the leader has just passed by it will take an extra lap of everyone trundling around at VSC speed, and overtaking the SC, until the leader comes back around again.

[Oilchange]

Drive Blind said:

Oilchange said:

Bear in mind he lost a large winglet from his front wing just prior, it might have made enough of a difference with frontal dowforce

was the piece falling off Sebs car explained ?

Not as such, or at least I didn't hear. They just replayed the right hand bend he took, running onto the kerb which caused vibration and it flying off. One can only speculate if it had a significant contribution toward the under rotation that sent him into the wall.

[Deesee]

AlexS said:

The magic in the Ferrari is coming from the MGU-H, which is passing energy directly to the MGU-K and bypassing the battery. There are no limits on the amount that can be transferred this way, the only limit is the 160Kw of the motor itself when deploying it.

I thought they were restricted on how much energy they could send via the “h” (although in theory the production could be unlimited).

I also thought they were restricted in deploying/transferring the electrical energy to 4mj (or 33 seconds a lap).

They must have found a way/loophole in the technical regulations (but may fall foul of the sporting regulations). Very clever, I wonder if perhaps it’s to do with the twin battery arrangement, have they found a way to harvest and deploy the energy store in tandem via the “k” and “h” and power the turbo charger from the “h”.

Interesting stuff!

[paua]

Derek Smith said:

Evangelion said:

I've been watching F1 since before most of you lot were born...

I'm not one for one-upmanship, but I was born before F1.

I don't suppose there's anyone born before cars were invented.

Early Benz/ Daimler 1880's , no, anyone born before that is long gone. Guess you mean you were born pre 1950 - minimum of Lauda's age (1949)

[Eric Mc]

The first Formula 1 set of specifications was actually set out in 1946/47.

The World Drivers' Championship commenced in 1950.

In 1952 and 1953, the World Drivers' Championship was a Formula 2 series, not Formula 1.

[Jasandjules]

Well that was quite a race.

I did like Hulk's comments, he is a sarky git and hilarious with it.

Well done Lewis, that was a supreme drive and I have to say the strategy team this time made up for their previous error.

I was pretty disappointed they didn't let Bottas and Lewis race but with the conditions I would not have been shocked to see one or the other understeer into the team mate and take them both out...... So I guess on that basis they didn't want to risk both cars at their home GP.

I felt really, really sorry for Vettel, a tiny mistake which on 80% of the track would have cost him a couple of seconds or so cost him the whole race.

And I don't think anyone can doubt Kimi won't be in a Ferrari next season.

[travel is dangerous]

Deesee said:

AlexS said:

The magic in the Ferrari is coming from the MGU-H, which is passing energy directly to the MGU-K and bypassing the battery. There are no limits on the amount that can be transferred this way, the only limit is the 160Kw of the motor itself when deploying it.

I thought they were restricted on how much energy they could send via the “h” (although in theory the production could be unlimited).

I also thought they were restricted in deploying/transferring the electrical energy to 4mj (or 33 seconds a lap).

They must have found a way/loophole in the technical regulations (but may fall foul of the sporting regulations). Very clever, I wonder if perhaps it’s to do with the twin battery arrangement, have they found a way to harvest and deploy the energy store in tandem via the “k” and “h” and power the turbo charger from the “h”.

Interesting stuff!

There are limits on total energy recovered and stored to the battery per lap but nothing to stop you routing starting from MGU H to MGU K.

[anonymous-user]

Jasandjules said:

And I don't think anyone can doubt Kimi won't be in a Ferrari next season.

One of my highlights of the race was Kimi getting confirmation he had to move over

[thegreenhell]

Grahamdub said:

Jasandjules said:

And I don't think anyone can doubt Kimi won't be in a Ferrari next season.

One of my highlights of the race was Kimi getting confirmation he had to move over

Imagine the conversation when they tell him he's leaving Ferrari...


"Kimi, Charles is coming up and we don't want you to hold him up"

"Er, can you be more direct? What do you want me to do?"

"Charles is capable of going faster, but he's hurting his career. You both are."

"Do you want me to... let him have a go? Basically just tell me."

[LDN]

Kimi might be at Ferrari next year: as it suits Vettel. But I hope they get the new kid in.

[Deesee]

travel is dangerous said:

Deesee said:

AlexS said:

The magic in the Ferrari is coming from the MGU-H, which is passing energy directly to the MGU-K and bypassing the battery. There are no limits on the amount that can be transferred this way, the only limit is the 160Kw of the motor itself when deploying it.

I thought they were restricted on how much energy they could send via the “h” (although in theory the production could be unlimited).

I also thought they were restricted in deploying/transferring the electrical energy to 4mj (or 33 seconds a lap).

They must have found a way/loophole in the technical regulations (but may fall foul of the sporting regulations). Very clever, I wonder if perhaps it’s to do with the twin battery arrangement, have they found a way to harvest and deploy the energy store in tandem via the “k” and “h” and power the turbo charger from the “h”.

Interesting stuff!

There are limits on total energy recovered and stored to the battery per lap but nothing to stop you routing starting from MGU H to MGU K.

I have had a quick read through.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1...

and it almost contradicts its self.

"The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of the pressure charging system. The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch."

then

"An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K."

So how could you transfer this without the use of the battery "ES" which is limited.

[Dr Z]

travel is dangerous said:

Deesee said:

AlexS said:

The magic in the Ferrari is coming from the MGU-H, which is passing energy directly to the MGU-K and bypassing the battery. There are no limits on the amount that can be transferred this way, the only limit is the 160Kw of the motor itself when deploying it.

I thought they were restricted on how much energy they could send via the “h” (although in theory the production could be unlimited).

I also thought they were restricted in deploying/transferring the electrical energy to 4mj (or 33 seconds a lap).

They must have found a way/loophole in the technical regulations (but may fall foul of the sporting regulations). Very clever, I wonder if perhaps it’s to do with the twin battery arrangement, have they found a way to harvest and deploy the energy store in tandem via the “k” and “h” and power the turbo charger from the “h”.

Interesting stuff!

There are limits on total energy recovered and stored to the battery per lap but nothing to stop you routing starting from MGU H to MGU K.

The H -> K routing was obvious from the rules, so I don't think Ferrari are doing anything Merc aren't doing there.

Also, anything that involves the battery has a bottleneck, so I don't quite follow how the twin battery setup can yield more deployment if at the end, the energy had to be deployed from the battery.

Need to get back to the regs.

[HustleRussell]

LDN said:

Kimi might be at Ferrari next year: as it suits Vettel. But I hope they get the new kid in.

I agree but the new kid had two offs on Sunday which will give Marchionne’s replacement just the excuse he needs to bottle it and re-sign Kimi. I hope I’m wrong.