Dan Ticktum Can't Test - Boohoo or suck it up sunshine?
Discussion
JohnMcL said:
So he is too dangerous to be in F1 but its OK for him to be unleashed among the F2 grid. Are F2 drivers less valued as people?
It's not 'ok' at all, but apparently it's happening so I simply meant I hope he uses it to prove he's calmed down. If it were up to me personally, given how bad his last escapades were... I'd vote no. I'd rather see him develop his talent in non wheel to wheel series for a year and also get some phsycotherapy to proves he's serious about addressing whatever made him see red and put lives at risk. And he really, really did put lives at risk that day. Not because I'm vindictive about a kid that's had a flip out - I know that happens. But for the sake and confidence of those that have to share a track with him.TheDeuce said:
It's not 'ok' at all, but apparently it's happening so I simply meant I hope he uses it to prove he's calmed down. If it were up to me personally, given how bad his last escapades were... I'd vote no. I'd rather see him develop his talent in non wheel to wheel series for a year and also get some phsycotherapy to proves he's serious about addressing whatever made him see red and put lives at risk. And he really, really did put lives at risk that day. Not because I'm vindictive about a kid that's had a flip out - I know that happens. But for the sake and confidence of those that have to share a track with him.
Good post. Sponsors may also find him toxic given the Youtube generation...
vaud said:
Good post. Sponsors may also find him toxic given the Youtube generation...
Quite. Just look at this thread - and this site ranks quite highly so potential sponsors probably will see this thread as they check out his public appreciation index or whatever they call it these days.. (hi sponsors.. 
) the overall impression he has on the sport appears to be a majority appalled by his loss of control and a minority focussed on his actual talent. Maybe that's a sad way to look at it but that is the way the world ticks these days.aponting389 said:
Be great to see him in F1 he’s mental
Interesting. You're technically right, it would be 'interesting' to see such a mentalist in F1. It wouldn't be sensible, healthy or advisable.. but I have to admit it would be morbidly interesting.Luckily he's only got as far as Williams, who are themselves barely 'in' F1 these days. And if Williams fix that state of affairs and are properly in the competition again, I think they'll also start to be a bit more picky about who they take onboard.
I totally understand why people have views on both sides of the fence.
If Ticktum was a footballer he would have probably flattened Collard in a tackle (justified or not) and taken a yellow card. That would have been the end of it. However when racing cars the element of danger is so much higher and it becomes totally unacceptable when you are placing volunteers at risk too.
I raced when I was younger and know that being put on the grass sets the red mist off but it all about how you handle that. I always managed to resist the temptation to fire the guy off at the next corner but clearly Dan's age / mental capacity or whatever it may be didn't filter that emotion very well and he made the worst decision and presumably instantly regretted it.
He made a huge error of judgement and quite rightly got a ban. Some called for a lifetime ban and to be honest I expected one but the MSA made their choice and he served his penalty.
The interesting thing about DT is that if he wasn't so fast then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Red Bull continued to sponsor him after the ban (for a while) so I don't think the sponsors care too much so long as they are getting exposure. They don't get that at the back of the field but they do at the front and Ticktum is more likely to provide that platform than many other average young drivers but with a clean history.
Your average punter watching F1 in a few years isn't going to make the link between an incident in a lower formulae they have never heard of when deciding to buy a particular brand of shaving foam for example. His conduct in F1 would have an impact on that, not anything before.
I think DT has learned his lesson and his comments at Macau this year spoke volumes. He was the one saying the new F3 cars were too quick for the track, that DRS was a concern and that a big accident could happen. For me that is a sign of a young man maturing, seeing the risks and being big enough to admit it as opposed to a childish, petulant hot head.
You don't win Macau twice without being very good, add some maturity to that speed and he remains an interesting prospect.
Does he deserve to get to F1? Not sure yet. He went missing a bit in Super Formula and wasn't at the front at Macau this year since Red Bull departed but F2 with DAMS will be the key. They are a top team and we will soon know if he has it.
What he did that day won't be forgotten and no doubt he will struggle for a fanbase as a result but I would much rather see a lad who made a massive error, learn from it and come back better to reach F1 on speed and ability rather than a driver pay to get in a seat just because they can.
If Ticktum was a footballer he would have probably flattened Collard in a tackle (justified or not) and taken a yellow card. That would have been the end of it. However when racing cars the element of danger is so much higher and it becomes totally unacceptable when you are placing volunteers at risk too.
I raced when I was younger and know that being put on the grass sets the red mist off but it all about how you handle that. I always managed to resist the temptation to fire the guy off at the next corner but clearly Dan's age / mental capacity or whatever it may be didn't filter that emotion very well and he made the worst decision and presumably instantly regretted it.
He made a huge error of judgement and quite rightly got a ban. Some called for a lifetime ban and to be honest I expected one but the MSA made their choice and he served his penalty.
The interesting thing about DT is that if he wasn't so fast then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Red Bull continued to sponsor him after the ban (for a while) so I don't think the sponsors care too much so long as they are getting exposure. They don't get that at the back of the field but they do at the front and Ticktum is more likely to provide that platform than many other average young drivers but with a clean history.
Your average punter watching F1 in a few years isn't going to make the link between an incident in a lower formulae they have never heard of when deciding to buy a particular brand of shaving foam for example. His conduct in F1 would have an impact on that, not anything before.
I think DT has learned his lesson and his comments at Macau this year spoke volumes. He was the one saying the new F3 cars were too quick for the track, that DRS was a concern and that a big accident could happen. For me that is a sign of a young man maturing, seeing the risks and being big enough to admit it as opposed to a childish, petulant hot head.
You don't win Macau twice without being very good, add some maturity to that speed and he remains an interesting prospect.
Does he deserve to get to F1? Not sure yet. He went missing a bit in Super Formula and wasn't at the front at Macau this year since Red Bull departed but F2 with DAMS will be the key. They are a top team and we will soon know if he has it.
What he did that day won't be forgotten and no doubt he will struggle for a fanbase as a result but I would much rather see a lad who made a massive error, learn from it and come back better to reach F1 on speed and ability rather than a driver pay to get in a seat just because they can.
Here's what Ricky Collard said about it back in 2018:-
"His “mistake” cost me a championship I couldn’t afford to race in Europe and that championship would have meant a lot to my career. I can’t go smashing into people it’s a shame money buys more and more opportunities. I never got mine because of a mistake made by a spoilt kid....."
I think those people who think there is no money involved in the Williams deal are deluding themselves. Are there really no people out there with his level of talent without the baggage?
"His “mistake” cost me a championship I couldn’t afford to race in Europe and that championship would have meant a lot to my career. I can’t go smashing into people it’s a shame money buys more and more opportunities. I never got mine because of a mistake made by a spoilt kid....."
I think those people who think there is no money involved in the Williams deal are deluding themselves. Are there really no people out there with his level of talent without the baggage?
Edited by Kraken on Thursday 19th December 12:28
TwentyFive said:
You don't win Macau twice without being very good ...
Drivers with Multiple Macau GP wins ...4 John MacDonald 1965, 1972, 1973, 1975
2 Arsenio Laurel 1962, 1963
2 Jan Bussell 1968, 1971
2 Vern Schuppan 1974, 1976
2 Riccardo Patrese 1977, 1978
2 Geoff Lees 1979, 1980
2 Edoardo Mortara 2009, 2010
2 Felix Rosenqvist 2014, 2015
2 António Félix da Costa 2012, 2016
2 Dan Ticktum 2017, 2018
Sorry to pick up on just one part of a good post but that's not great company to be in!
Kraken said:
Here's what Ricky Collard said about it back in 2018:-
"His “mistake” cost me a championship I couldn’t afford to race in Europe and that championship would have meant a lot to my career. I can’t go smashing into people it’s a shame money buys more and more opportunities. I never got mine because of a mistake made by a spoilt kid....."
Totally get Collard's frustration and no doubt it did have an impact on his season but lets add a little context and some stats. A race win in 2015 was 25 points. Collard was beaten to the championship by a certain Lando Norris by 42 points so even if Collard would have won the race where Ticktum wiped him out then he still wouldn't have won the championship so the incident didn't cost him the championship."His “mistake” cost me a championship I couldn’t afford to race in Europe and that championship would have meant a lot to my career. I can’t go smashing into people it’s a shame money buys more and more opportunities. I never got mine because of a mistake made by a spoilt kid....."
Edited by Kraken on Thursday 19th December 12:28
As for his comments about money then Collard is being a touch hypocritical. He comes from a wealthy family who not only run a very successful demolition firm in the UK but have enough spare income knocking about to fund his dad Rob racing in BTCC in top teams for the past 19 years. Add the cost of Ricky's karting and car racing career alongside it and you do struggle to buy into the whole financial struggles argument.
The bottom line is they are both very privileged lads to do what they do, its just one of them couldn't control his temper. Collards frustration is totally justified but the reality doesn't match up to the comment.
TwentyFive said:
Totally get Collard's frustration and no doubt it did have an impact on his season but lets add a little context and some stats. A race win in 2015 was 25 points. Collard was beaten to the championship by a certain Lando Norris by 42 points so even if Collard would have won the race where Ticktum wiped him out then he still wouldn't have won the championship so the incident didn't cost him the championship.
As for his comments about money then Collard is being a touch hypocritical. He comes from a wealthy family who not only run a very successful demolition firm in the UK but have enough spare income knocking about to fund his dad Rob racing in BTCC in top teams for the past 19 years. Add the cost of Ricky's karting and car racing career alongside it and you do struggle to buy into the whole financial struggles argument.
The bottom line is they are both very privileged lads to do what they do, its just one of them couldn't control his temper. Collards frustration is totally justified but the reality doesn't match up to the comment.
It's all relative. To someone with £100 in the bank someone with £100k seems like a millionaire but they're nothing compared to an actual one. How much money Rickys dad chooses to spend on his own racing is irrelevant to Ricky.As for his comments about money then Collard is being a touch hypocritical. He comes from a wealthy family who not only run a very successful demolition firm in the UK but have enough spare income knocking about to fund his dad Rob racing in BTCC in top teams for the past 19 years. Add the cost of Ricky's karting and car racing career alongside it and you do struggle to buy into the whole financial struggles argument.
The bottom line is they are both very privileged lads to do what they do, its just one of them couldn't control his temper. Collards frustration is totally justified but the reality doesn't match up to the comment.
TwentyFive said:
Totally get Collard's frustration and no doubt it did have an impact on his season but lets add a little context and some stats. A race win in 2015 was 25 points. Collard was beaten to the championship by a certain Lando Norris by 42 points so even if Collard would have won the race where Ticktum wiped him out then he still wouldn't have won the championship so the incident didn't cost him the championship.
As for his comments about money then Collard is being a touch hypocritical. He comes from a wealthy family who not only run a very successful demolition firm in the UK but have enough spare income knocking about to fund his dad Rob racing in BTCC in top teams for the past 19 years. Add the cost of Ricky's karting and car racing career alongside it and you do struggle to buy into the whole financial struggles argument.
The bottom line is they are both very privileged lads to do what they do, its just one of them couldn't control his temper. Collards frustration is totally justified but the reality doesn't match up to the comment.
The problem with that is, it did affect his championship and it should not have done... We can speculate endlessly if it really would have made a difference to his career but it's for him to prove how good he is under fair (at least fair as can be) conditions. On this occasion, his chance to perform and demonstrate his skill, after his/his dads investment of money, and his investment of time, was taken from him. That's not as bad as the potential for a Marshall being killed or injured of course... But it is fair to say it's another knock on effect of an incident that should never have happened and was caused fully intentionally.As for his comments about money then Collard is being a touch hypocritical. He comes from a wealthy family who not only run a very successful demolition firm in the UK but have enough spare income knocking about to fund his dad Rob racing in BTCC in top teams for the past 19 years. Add the cost of Ricky's karting and car racing career alongside it and you do struggle to buy into the whole financial struggles argument.
The bottom line is they are both very privileged lads to do what they do, its just one of them couldn't control his temper. Collards frustration is totally justified but the reality doesn't match up to the comment.
Kraken said:
It's all relative. To someone with £100 in the bank someone with £100k seems like a millionaire but they're nothing compared to an actual one. How much money Rickys dad chooses to spend on his own racing is irrelevant to Ricky.
All relative indeed Kraken... but they are both privileged compared to the vast majority of kids growing up. It's not just Ticktum.I think its completely relevant how Rob spent his money. If my lad was showing real promise in racing (which Ricky was) but budget was tight and I had had a good 15 years in the BTCC at that point then I would look to limit my racing to afford my lad the best possible opportunity to make it.
I find it odd to talk about budget when Rob gladly bank rolled WSR to a small fortune each year knowing full well he was probably subsidising a cheaper drive for Turkington as their main man on the other side of the garage. All of that was going on when his son Ricky had an opportunity to make a career with the right support plan. To be fair to Ricky he did have talent too, he held his own against the new F1 hotshot in Lando and the now youngest ever IndyCar winner in Colton Herta.
For someone as successful in business as Rob it always struck me as an odd choice even back then but I respect that he earned it and can choose how to spend it. I just don't agree with the logic of moaning about budget when you are throwing money away in another area of racing for no real gain when your son has potential.
TheDeuce said:
The problem with that is, it did affect his championship and it should not have done... We can speculate endlessly if it really would have made a difference to his career but it's for him to prove how good he is under fair (at least fair as can be) conditions. On this occasion, his chance to perform and demonstrate his skill, after his/his dads investment of money, and his investment of time, was taken from him.
I agree with you. The 'un-measurables' you mention can never be calculated accurately but no doubt it will have had an impact in those areas. My point was that it didn't cost him the championship points wise like he said it did. He was 2nd before the accident, 2nd after it and still 2nd at the end of the season.FWIW, of course it was major error of judgement but I am sorry but all this 'too dangerous for F1' stuff is bulls
t. He was very young and competitive. He made a serious error and has been punished for it. In fact, he's been more than punished for it thanks to social media and online communities. The past is the past. Many of us have made errors of judgement when the red mist falls and can look back at our 16 year old selves and think 'I was a different person then.' If he is good enough he deserves his chance, end of.
t. He was very young and competitive. He made a serious error and has been punished for it. In fact, he's been more than punished for it thanks to social media and online communities. The past is the past. Many of us have made errors of judgement when the red mist falls and can look back at our 16 year old selves and think 'I was a different person then.' If he is good enough he deserves his chance, end of.Frimley111R said:
FWIW, of course it was major error of judgement but I am sorry but all this 'too dangerous for F1' stuff is bullst. He was very young and competitive. He made a serious error and has been punished for it. In fact, he's been more than punished for it thanks to social media and online communities. The past is the past. Many of us have made errors of judgement when the red mist falls and can look back at our 16 year old selves and think 'I was a different person then.' If he is good enough he deserves his chance, end of.
I basically agree with all of that - I certainly made an 'error' when I was 18 (sorry officer... ). But the thing is, other drivers have to share a track with this guy. To make that tenable imo, he has to somehow demonstrate he really has grown out of, or dealt with whatever made him potentially sacrifice his career and others lives in an instant. He has to prove that in the heat of battle that sort of decision is no longer his default. I'm really not saying that because I want to write him off, but it is important to consider the difference between what the other drivers accept as acceptable and unacceptable risk when they race one another - loosely quoting Lauda there..t. He was very young and competitive. He made a serious error and has been punished for it. In fact, he's been more than punished for it thanks to social media and online communities. The past is the past. Many of us have made errors of judgement when the red mist falls and can look back at our 16 year old selves and think 'I was a different person then.' If he is good enough he deserves his chance, end of.He has this season in F2, which I'm not sure was a good call, but let's see. If during the season he gets enraged but then quickly takes control of himself, I for one will start to feel quite differently towards him. He basically needs to be in a similar situation and not act like a dick next time. Then, maybe F1 if he's good enough. I don't see the Williams appointment as anything other than title for £££ so I'm pretty much just going to ignore the fact he is technically already kinda in F1.
Frimley111R said:
FWIW, of course it was major error of judgement but I am sorry but all this 'too dangerous for F1' stuff is bullst. He was very young and competitive. He made a serious error and has been punished for it. In fact, he's been more than punished for it thanks to social media and online communities. The past is the past. Many of us have made errors of judgement when the red mist falls and can look back at our 16 year old selves and think 'I was a different person then.' If he is good enough he deserves his chance, end of.
Don’t agree. My son raced karts, single seaters and sports cars all over the UK and in Europe over a period of many years. t. He was very young and competitive. He made a serious error and has been punished for it. In fact, he's been more than punished for it thanks to social media and online communities. The past is the past. Many of us have made errors of judgement when the red mist falls and can look back at our 16 year old selves and think 'I was a different person then.' If he is good enough he deserves his chance, end of.I never saw any behaviour that comes even close to what Ticktum did, ever.
There were plenty of incidents, arguments, finger pointing and recriminations but deliberately hunting someone down like that?
No. He got off very, very lightly.
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