When will petrol engines come back to the bigger stuff?
Discussion
Hi all
A bit of idle musing if you would indulge me. I have been doing the usual browsing of the classifieds wondering what my next daily should be (damn you trusty old Accord for showing a sign of impending failure
). As I browse in my £5k budget, I’m presented with a stream of diesel estates and as usual narrowing the search field to petrol only presents far fewer choices and much increased travel distance to find ‘the one’.
I flirted with the idea of stepping down a segment to a focus sized car, and noticed petrol options much more plentiful. Taking that a step further and petrol engines are ubiquitous in the super mini, almost like they never went away. However, step up a segment from the large estate to the 4x4 and you get very slim pickings for petrol models. I know this is essentially a byproduct of the tax policies of 10 years ago and I guess in the bigger ‘suv’ categories diesel was always a popular choice even before engine performance made it the de facto standard.
Then you look at new cars up for sale today. Petrol is making it back well and truly into people’s buying list. That’s very true of the 3 car segments mentioned above.
But what about bigger stuff. Suv’s, pick ups, even vans? When will people start to spec petrols in those lines more often? I wonder how long before they are as common on the used market once again?
With the exception of Range Rover, is there a 4x4 that’s kept offering a big capacity petrol (in the U.K.) all through the diesels heyday?
Like I said. Incessant rambling. But if I wanted to take a step up to a bigger car now, let’s say I needed the towing capacity. I’m stuck with the Derv and the associated unreliability and these days probably stigma that it will bring!
A bit of idle musing if you would indulge me. I have been doing the usual browsing of the classifieds wondering what my next daily should be (damn you trusty old Accord for showing a sign of impending failure
). As I browse in my £5k budget, I’m presented with a stream of diesel estates and as usual narrowing the search field to petrol only presents far fewer choices and much increased travel distance to find ‘the one’. I flirted with the idea of stepping down a segment to a focus sized car, and noticed petrol options much more plentiful. Taking that a step further and petrol engines are ubiquitous in the super mini, almost like they never went away. However, step up a segment from the large estate to the 4x4 and you get very slim pickings for petrol models. I know this is essentially a byproduct of the tax policies of 10 years ago and I guess in the bigger ‘suv’ categories diesel was always a popular choice even before engine performance made it the de facto standard.
Then you look at new cars up for sale today. Petrol is making it back well and truly into people’s buying list. That’s very true of the 3 car segments mentioned above.
But what about bigger stuff. Suv’s, pick ups, even vans? When will people start to spec petrols in those lines more often? I wonder how long before they are as common on the used market once again?
With the exception of Range Rover, is there a 4x4 that’s kept offering a big capacity petrol (in the U.K.) all through the diesels heyday?
Like I said. Incessant rambling. But if I wanted to take a step up to a bigger car now, let’s say I needed the towing capacity. I’m stuck with the Derv and the associated unreliability and these days probably stigma that it will bring!
Edited by eltax91 on Saturday 21st July 23:29
I think a lot of manufacturers offered petrol, but punters bought diesel because it was cheaper to fuel and tax - hence the problem you find higher up the scale. On superminis it was cheaper to buy a petrol varient than diesel, so roles reversed, and the c02 wasn't that high as the engine cc was lower than the equivalent brands SUV, so tax price wasn't much different. Sliding scale between the two.
But no we are in turbo powered low capacity petrol stuff, and the bigger cars are rocking electric hybrid, I've noticed that petrol cars are about the same price as diesel on higher models.
So in a decades time, you'll see a change in the majority of the used car market. Superminis will remain the same, but SUVs will have many more petrol than diesels is my prediction.
But no we are in turbo powered low capacity petrol stuff, and the bigger cars are rocking electric hybrid, I've noticed that petrol cars are about the same price as diesel on higher models.
So in a decades time, you'll see a change in the majority of the used car market. Superminis will remain the same, but SUVs will have many more petrol than diesels is my prediction.
Interesting thread OP.
I had 4 cylinder turbo-diesel BMWs for nearly a decade, largely because I was using them with a car allowance and getting business mileage.
But after that was no longer an issue I discovered straight 6 N/A petrol BMWS, and have had nothing else ever since!
I don't ever want another diesel.
I had 4 cylinder turbo-diesel BMWs for nearly a decade, largely because I was using them with a car allowance and getting business mileage.
But after that was no longer an issue I discovered straight 6 N/A petrol BMWS, and have had nothing else ever since!
I don't ever want another diesel.
Agreed, an interesting one really.
Relating to my own scenario, we've just bought a new 3.0 SDV6 RR Sport Autobiog. Most would say buying a diesel car in this climate is suicide but its all diesel scare mongering morons in the general public who buy into this whole Diesel will kill us propaganda, thus changing the whole attitude of the car market. Porsche have dropped all their diesel engines because of this demand dropping and the diesel gate stuff, but rumours are they will return. In the mean time everyone is jumping on the petrol and hybrid alternatives.
The reason why we bought the 3.0 diesel (and ok yes theres a 4.4 diesel as well) is because the torque is key. The torque of a diesel is what makes most of these huge suvs and jeeps complete wafting machines. The larger capacity diesel engine creates more than enough torque to shift 2.5 tonnes of metal, it is quiet, refined, and more than capable of being quick considering the size of the car.
The problem with moderate sized petrols in such huge cars, in the example above the 3.0 supercharged petrol in the range rover sport, is that its completely pointless - i imagine it was dropped because the demand wasn't there (just look at how little used ones are on ph and auto trader). It will be underpowered, wont offer the performance of the larger 5.0 petrol, imagine it would feel quite strained moving the mass of an RR, and will do worse mpg than the diesel - its completely pointless.
The other option is to then go to the other extremity and buy a 5.0 petrol - but then this turns into buying the engine that is performance focussed, something the 3.0 diesel isn't - while the regular 5.0 in the range is sedated, in SVR guise its an animal. As is the 4.4 in the X5m, 4.0 in the various amg jeeps, etc etc - They aren't there for reasonable real world, every day driving and reasonable running costs, where as the slightly smaller diesel delivers almost everything a bigger petrol could minus a couple of seconds to 60 and cracks any bangs. For this reason i don't see more mainstream petrol alternatives ever returning to market other than the big ferocious super suv ones such as the SVR, Ms, AMGs etc. Now hybrid, that is something i could see becoming more mainstream - a reasonable sized petrol alongside an electric motor (Porsche can get 680bhp out of a panamera hybrid as an example) so that might be the new alternative.
Relating to my own scenario, we've just bought a new 3.0 SDV6 RR Sport Autobiog. Most would say buying a diesel car in this climate is suicide but its all diesel scare mongering morons in the general public who buy into this whole Diesel will kill us propaganda, thus changing the whole attitude of the car market. Porsche have dropped all their diesel engines because of this demand dropping and the diesel gate stuff, but rumours are they will return. In the mean time everyone is jumping on the petrol and hybrid alternatives.
The reason why we bought the 3.0 diesel (and ok yes theres a 4.4 diesel as well) is because the torque is key. The torque of a diesel is what makes most of these huge suvs and jeeps complete wafting machines. The larger capacity diesel engine creates more than enough torque to shift 2.5 tonnes of metal, it is quiet, refined, and more than capable of being quick considering the size of the car.
The problem with moderate sized petrols in such huge cars, in the example above the 3.0 supercharged petrol in the range rover sport, is that its completely pointless - i imagine it was dropped because the demand wasn't there (just look at how little used ones are on ph and auto trader). It will be underpowered, wont offer the performance of the larger 5.0 petrol, imagine it would feel quite strained moving the mass of an RR, and will do worse mpg than the diesel - its completely pointless.
The other option is to then go to the other extremity and buy a 5.0 petrol - but then this turns into buying the engine that is performance focussed, something the 3.0 diesel isn't - while the regular 5.0 in the range is sedated, in SVR guise its an animal. As is the 4.4 in the X5m, 4.0 in the various amg jeeps, etc etc - They aren't there for reasonable real world, every day driving and reasonable running costs, where as the slightly smaller diesel delivers almost everything a bigger petrol could minus a couple of seconds to 60 and cracks any bangs. For this reason i don't see more mainstream petrol alternatives ever returning to market other than the big ferocious super suv ones such as the SVR, Ms, AMGs etc. Now hybrid, that is something i could see becoming more mainstream - a reasonable sized petrol alongside an electric motor (Porsche can get 680bhp out of a panamera hybrid as an example) so that might be the new alternative.
Edited by irfan1712 on Sunday 22 July 15:27
Edited by irfan1712 on Sunday 22 July 15:28
An engine with more power than the one he has is underpowered ?
To be fair, I can see what he is saying in most of the post but that doesnt make much sense, the tdi has more torque but less power, but does sixty in under seven seconds, underpowered it is not.
Probably dropped as nobody bought it, will be worse on fuel and not meaningfully faster, of no interest to the diesel drivers and those who want a petrol go for the SVR mental thing.
Petrol engine wont really make much of a comeback as diesel engines make most sense, you get the economy which is just poor compared to hilariously bad, its palatable doing twenty odd rather than the single figures to mid teens of an SVR.
Electric motors are the next logical step, look at the Tesla Model X and S, the USP of the electric motor is huge torque from low RPM, which, like a diesel is perfect for big, heavy vehicles, the engine doesnt give a toss about how heavy a car is, it just flings it up the road and in bigger cars the battery size and weight isnt as much of a problem than in smaller ones, refinement is better as well, we now have the I pace and more and more will start popping up.
I read Autocar each week and the coverage for EV's is growing.
To be fair, I can see what he is saying in most of the post but that doesnt make much sense, the tdi has more torque but less power, but does sixty in under seven seconds, underpowered it is not.
Probably dropped as nobody bought it, will be worse on fuel and not meaningfully faster, of no interest to the diesel drivers and those who want a petrol go for the SVR mental thing.
Petrol engine wont really make much of a comeback as diesel engines make most sense, you get the economy which is just poor compared to hilariously bad, its palatable doing twenty odd rather than the single figures to mid teens of an SVR.
Electric motors are the next logical step, look at the Tesla Model X and S, the USP of the electric motor is huge torque from low RPM, which, like a diesel is perfect for big, heavy vehicles, the engine doesnt give a toss about how heavy a car is, it just flings it up the road and in bigger cars the battery size and weight isnt as much of a problem than in smaller ones, refinement is better as well, we now have the I pace and more and more will start popping up.
I read Autocar each week and the coverage for EV's is growing.
£140 a month tax from the 2nd year irrespective of CO2 sounds excellent value to me. Weren’t the old V8 Mustangs <£40k? That’s cheap tax for a lot of “pollution”,so if it encourages more big petrols now I’m all in favour, and if we see a swing back to big NA encouraged by the new road tax rates that’s superb news.
JLR have dropped the 3-litre petrol V6 380 bhp in the UK because they say it doesn't meet the latest emission requirements. It's still available for other markets like the USA and Aus. There's also a petrol 340 bhp in some markets.
Whether they will ever bring out the Ingenium straight 6 petrol is an open question.
It's complete b
ks to say the V6 petrol is underpowered compared to the V6 diesel. The petrol has maximum 380 bhp while the diesel has 300 bhp. Whether you are prepared to rev the petrol engine to get to the power you want is another question. The V6 diesel delivers 500+ nm of torque at quite low revs.
Whether they will ever bring out the Ingenium straight 6 petrol is an open question.
It's complete b
ks to say the V6 petrol is underpowered compared to the V6 diesel. The petrol has maximum 380 bhp while the diesel has 300 bhp. Whether you are prepared to rev the petrol engine to get to the power you want is another question. The V6 diesel delivers 500+ nm of torque at quite low revs.Edited by southerndriver on Sunday 22 July 20:03
Ha. think my post may may have been taken out of context just a tad.
I am not saying a 3.0 supercharged v6 is underpowered. i am not daft. It is not in say, an F Type. i am saying it is underpowered, or will at least feel that, in an application of an SUV (sorry, not jeep to mr pedantic) COMPARED to the a 3.0 oil burner in the same application. Why? because of the torque. The 3.0 supercharged v6 has 330 lb ft of torque. Not only that, its delivered at 3k revs. So you'll have to ring its neck to get it moving in comparison to the SDV6, which has less bhp granted, (40 if that?) but has 516lb ft of torque, delivered at 1500rpm. Forget 0-60 times and whatever else, that is worlds apart on how the elephant is being moved.. effortlessly. Which is what, in this example, a Range Rover is all about (SVR and the like aside).
The above is true to an SUV that was bought for cruising, wafting, general day to day driving. If you was in the market for a super SUV, i.e SVR, X5M and whatever else, then yes, the larger petrol wins because that not what the diesel engines are for. Because of that like i said i can't see diesel engines going anywhere for cars that are so large, bought for wafting about. Other brands may have dropped a few diesels, but someone like Landrover show no signs of the diesel going anywhere - which relates to the OPs question seen as they are at the top of the 4x4 sales mountain. pun intended.
I am not saying a 3.0 supercharged v6 is underpowered. i am not daft. It is not in say, an F Type. i am saying it is underpowered, or will at least feel that, in an application of an SUV (sorry, not jeep to mr pedantic) COMPARED to the a 3.0 oil burner in the same application. Why? because of the torque. The 3.0 supercharged v6 has 330 lb ft of torque. Not only that, its delivered at 3k revs. So you'll have to ring its neck to get it moving in comparison to the SDV6, which has less bhp granted, (40 if that?) but has 516lb ft of torque, delivered at 1500rpm. Forget 0-60 times and whatever else, that is worlds apart on how the elephant is being moved.. effortlessly. Which is what, in this example, a Range Rover is all about (SVR and the like aside).
The above is true to an SUV that was bought for cruising, wafting, general day to day driving. If you was in the market for a super SUV, i.e SVR, X5M and whatever else, then yes, the larger petrol wins because that not what the diesel engines are for. Because of that like i said i can't see diesel engines going anywhere for cars that are so large, bought for wafting about. Other brands may have dropped a few diesels, but someone like Landrover show no signs of the diesel going anywhere - which relates to the OPs question seen as they are at the top of the 4x4 sales mountain. pun intended.
Years ago petrol engines had reasonable torque values so you could drive it as a daily motor and pull a caravan as well. Efficiency and emissions have driven petrol towards high bhp at the expense of torque. This hasn't been an issue because diesel engines have been there to fill the torque requirement. To get reasonable torque from a modern petrol engine it needs to be big and uneconomical. The plugin petrol hybrids have plenty of torque for the first 60 miles then they become wheezy little petrol units hoping to find a vacant mains socket
SlimJim16v said:
Ah, so the problem isn't the engine, it's the driver. So the diesel is better for someone who doesn't know how to use a gearbox and rev an engine, so can't drive.
Sigh. The diesel has less bhp, far more torque, AND its delivered way earlier in the rev range. To make such a large car move effortlessly. Which is one of the reasons why you buy a range rover that isn't performance focussed such as an svr. You do not need to rev so high to get the same effect from the petrol equivalent. Paddles are there for manual take over but i can get bet that a huge amount of owners never use them. ever. Absolutely nothing to do with gearboxes and when to change gear and knowing how to drive or not lol.
If customers has the choice of petrol or diesel for a range rover, why are probably 80-90% of them in the UK at least all diesel at the moment? I agree because the are probably cheaper to buy in the first place but because for such a large car, the diesel engines performance and running costs are ample.
irfan1712 said:
Sigh. The diesel has less bhp, far more torque, AND its delivered way earlier in the rev range. To make such a large car move effortlessly. Which is one of the reasons why you buy a range rover that isn't performance focussed such as an svr.
I rather agree. Who wants to have to rev their 4x4 to 5000rpm to get anywhere, and then suffer even more atrocious fuel economy because of it, on top of what you're already suffering from picking the petrol car in the first place?I changed my diesel BMW last year for a (somewhat revvy) petrol one, and the comparison has been quite eye-opening. I like it, mostly, but having driven both my main criticism of the petrol one is that it just feels a bit tiring having to rev it so damn much. The car feels like it's losing the battle against any hill until 2000+rpm. Changing gear below 3000rpm is a tricky to do well due to the shape of the torque curve. Acceleration is a mite disappointing until 3000rpm, so any overtake will involve changing down at least 1 gear. (My record is 4. 6th to 2nd.) Generally, it's all pretty good above 3000rpm, but the engine sounds pretty noisy by that point, which just increases as you carry on, and the fuel economy doesn't get any better. And of course it's already a lot worse than the diesel anyway.
What good is any of this with a 4x4? It's all absolutely fine if you've bought an explicitly sporty-type car, like a Porsche or whatever. And it's probably excusable for a larger-engined petrol BMW or similar, which as everday cars go do at least have the appropriate pretensions. But for a 4x4?! I'm really not sure any of this makes half as much sense.
VW do a 2.0 TSI in the UK Transporter now, but they’ve offered it on the continent for ages so not a big deal to expand that.
I suspect some others already set up for petrol elsewhere (eg Ford Transit, Nissan NV, etc) will offer them here too. Just a stopgap until electricification though.
I suspect some others already set up for petrol elsewhere (eg Ford Transit, Nissan NV, etc) will offer them here too. Just a stopgap until electricification though.
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