The Official 2018 Belgium Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
TobyTR said:
Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
ou can see Alonso's wheel rotating towards the path of Leclerc's helmet - that's clear. We're talking millimetres from something catastrophic happening in both cases.
No we're not, he would have been ok on Sunday. That's not to say that halo did or didn't help stop the wheel get closer to him.Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
ou can see Alonso's wheel rotating towards the path of Leclerc's helmet - that's clear. We're talking millimetres from something catastrophic happening in both cases.
No we're not, he would have been ok on Sunday. That's not to say that halo did or didn't help stop the wheel get closer to him.I get you're totally against Halo and that's fine and your opinion. I was against Halo too. But you can't categorically say he would've been okay.
Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 30th August 00:58
TobyTR said:
Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
ou can see Alonso's wheel rotating towards the path of Leclerc's helmet - that's clear. We're talking millimetres from something catastrophic happening in both cases.
No we're not, he would have been ok on Sunday. That's not to say that halo did or didn't help stop the wheel get closer to him.I get you're totally against Halo and that's fine and your opinion. I was against Halo too. But you can't categorically say he would've been okay.
Prevention is always better than cure. I wouldn't want to see that incident play out again without a halo on Leclerc's car, just so someone who thinks everything's gravy, can pass judgement on what type of incident a halo would safeguard a driver against. If someone was brave / silly enough to tell Leclerc he'd have been fine without a halo on his car on Sunday - I'd forgive Charles for knocking their teeth out.
It's all well and good saying he'd have been fine regardless (which IMO is guesswork), but we have to deal with facts, not what ifs. He was close to having his head mullered. That's not a career ending thing, it's a life ending thing. I for one am glad it didn't come to that, and a hugely talented racer can continue to do great things and provide great entertainment for onlookers.
Taking a step sideways for a moment; a few years ago, titanium cockpit shields were mandated in the pro fuel classes (Top Fuel / Funny Car) - with a bit of reluctance on the grounds of it acting as a cup for a fireball, with your head sat in the middle. It wasn't brought in for that, it was brought in to stop tyre and wheel debris piercing a crash helmet in the event of a blowout. When they spoke to drivers who'd suffered a tyre blowout at 250-320mph, they were happy it had been introduced. My point is, when you've faced the very thing these safety systems are there to protect, and you've gotten away with out it, knowing you perhaps shouldn't have, you're better placed to judge their validity than a spectator, who thinks it looks ugly and neuters the sport.
TobyTR said:
Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
ou can see Alonso's wheel rotating towards the path of Leclerc's helmet - that's clear. We're talking millimetres from something catastrophic happening in both cases.
No we're not, he would have been ok on Sunday. That's not to say that halo did or didn't help stop the wheel get closer to him.If you want sporting entertainment that guarantees competitior saftety then maybe motorsport is not for you. It is dangerous - as mentioned on the back of every ticket and all the way along the catch fencing around every circuit.
BaronVonVaderham said:
We can guarantee he’d be ok if we just don’t let him race at all.
If you want sporting entertainment that guarantees competitior saftety then maybe motorsport is not for you. It is dangerous - as mentioned on the back of every ticket and all the way along the catch fencing around every circuit.
The halo makes absolutely no difference to the quality (or otherwise) of the racing whereas not racing obviously does. Anything that improves safety without dramatically affecting the racing is a no brainer to me.If you want sporting entertainment that guarantees competitior saftety then maybe motorsport is not for you. It is dangerous - as mentioned on the back of every ticket and all the way along the catch fencing around every circuit.
I really don't get this pre 1980's type attitude that people should be dying or getting hurt for the sake of a sport.
People moaned when full face helmets came out, they moaned again when high cockpit sides came in and again when the HANS device was released. All of these things are taken for granted these day, have not affected the racing in the slightest and saved many drivers from serious injury or death.
BaronVonVaderham said:
TobyTR said:
Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
ou can see Alonso's wheel rotating towards the path of Leclerc's helmet - that's clear. We're talking millimetres from something catastrophic happening in both cases.
No we're not, he would have been ok on Sunday. That's not to say that halo did or didn't help stop the wheel get closer to him.If you want sporting entertainment that guarantees competitior saftety then maybe motorsport is not for you. It is dangerous - as mentioned on the back of every ticket and all the way along the catch fencing around every circuit.
Cons: it looks ugly
Pros: it could save someone’s life.
From a legal point of view, F1 drivers are employees and are covered by the Health and Saftey at Work act, so should be protected where reasonably practicable.
From a moral point of view, there lives are more important than our entertainment.
From an engineering point of view, “attractiveness” has never been a priority in F1 car design. It’s has always been a trade off between perforance and safety, even in the 70s, at the height of danger.
Just because it may not have made a difference yet, only a fool ignores history. In the Safety World, “near misses” are just as important as actual accidents, because usually the only differentiator between a near miss and a death/serious injury is a little bit of luck.
Motorsport is dangerous. We should be striving to reduce that as far as reasonably practicable, not just accepting it. Anyone who disagrees with this should speak to Jackie Stewart.
NFC 85 Vette said:
It's all well and good saying he'd have been fine regardless (which IMO is guesswork), but we have to deal with facts, not what ifs. He was close to having his head mullered. That's not a career ending thing, it's a life ending thing. I for one am glad it didn't come to that, and a hugely talented racer can continue to do great things and provide great entertainment for onlookers.
I don’t like the appearance of Halo but I do accept it as a step forward in safety and support it (with a slight concern over egress of an injured driver - but it’s all a balance / compromise and it’s not one they would decide without a significant weight of data and analysis).But you say we have to deal in facts, and then extrapolate everything through some what if’s, to their would have been a death had it not been there.
I don’t think it’s sensible to base a conclusion on the Halo on this crash. What we do know is it gave more protection and deflected a wheel which may have hit his helmet (good). We don’t know how much worse the consequences would have been without it (so we don’t kniw how good). It’s highly likely that in time there will be an incident when it’s benefit is far more conclusive without needing any ifs and buts. I just hope that we don’t have the same with getting an injured driver out, or at least many less of them over time.
Kraken said:
The halo makes absolutely no difference to the quality (or otherwise) of the racing whereas not racing obviously does. Anything that improves safety without dramatically affecting the racing is a no brainer to me.
I agree with you... but I suppose we should go to closed cockpits then. Which I don’t really want but is probably inevitable? And enclosed wheels? (I’m not going down the drivers controlling cars remotely avenue - I can’t cope with that) These are a step too far for me, but it’s a natural direction to improve safety. There aren’t any simple answers to this.I think realistically a closed cockpit is coming but designing something that stops small objects, large objects, doesn't distort vision, is ventilated enough for all weathers and doesnt get in the way of a driver escaping froma car that's on fire and upside down is a hell of a challenge
andburg said:
I think realistically a closed cockpit is coming but designing something that stops small objects, large objects, doesn't distort vision, is ventilated enough for all weathers and doesnt get in the way of a driver escaping froma car that's on fire and upside down is a hell of a challenge
actually I think most of those things are pretty easy. they have fighter cockpit style screens in drag racing, indycar, WEC (to an extent) and boat racing, they all stop small and large objects. ventilation isn't an issue because you just have air conditioning (see WEC, temperatures have to be below a point to be legal) to be the biggest issue is oxygen supply/ fire. cars have gone upside down in the NHRA, but crash recovery is very quick and breathing apparatus only need to be small due to the time spent in car. I think a more elegant solution would be like the safety sell in powerboat racing which is a completely sealed cell which you can detach from the main body, has its own air supply incase of emergencies etc, so the driver is safe, can be kept away from fire and has a supply of air and be extracted relatively easily
swisstoni said:
F1 is an open cockpit formula.
I think the regulators have gone as far as they possibly can to keep that fundamental while offering a workable improvement in driver protection.
There may be some minor tinkering with Halo but it’s not going to change much now IMHO.
its an open cockpit formula.....for now. I think the regulators have gone as far as they possibly can to keep that fundamental while offering a workable improvement in driver protection.
There may be some minor tinkering with Halo but it’s not going to change much now IMHO.
all series rules change over time. sportscars went fully closed cockpit a few years ago for safety reasons, and I'm sure over time f1 may well go closed cockpit/ closed wheel (not an alien concept for f1)
I hope the Halo changes, not least because if that's the best some of the best engineers can come up with, its frankly embarrassing. while its shown merits in working so far, its not a perfect design both aesthetically, from a safety or aerodynamic POV
NFC 85 Vette said:
The trouble is, those so adverse to the adoption of the halo, tend to qualify the statement on aesthetic grounds rather than its ability as a safety device. The very idea that it shouldn't be used and we in fact wait until someone has their head caved in, and judge its validity after the funeral, I find baffling.
Prevention is always better than cure.
They should install front and rear bumpers then, so getting hit up the arse doesn't launch a car.Prevention is always better than cure.
Nampahc Niloc said:
Motorsport is dangerous. We should be striving to reduce that as far as reasonably practicable, not just accepting it.
100% completely agree, and if several drivers had died in recent times due to large debris hitting their helmets then there would be no objections to the halo. As it is no f1 driver has died in the last decade from being struck by large debris (nothing would’ve saved JB at the speed he hit that tractor), ergo the halo is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, that’s why it’s being objected to.
BaronVonVaderham said:
Nampahc Niloc said:
Motorsport is dangerous. We should be striving to reduce that as far as reasonably practicable, not just accepting it.
100% completely agree, and if several drivers had died in recent times due to large debris hitting their helmets then there would be no objections to the halo. As it is no f1 driver has died in the last decade from being struck by large debris (nothing would’ve saved JB at the speed he hit that tractor), ergo the halo is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, that’s why it’s being objected to.
TobyTR said:
Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
Sam993 said:
TobyTR said:
ou can see Alonso's wheel rotating towards the path of Leclerc's helmet - that's clear. We're talking millimetres from something catastrophic happening in both cases.
No we're not, he would have been ok on Sunday. That's not to say that halo did or didn't help stop the wheel get closer to him.I get you're totally against Halo and that's fine and your opinion. I was against Halo too. But you can't categorically say he would've been okay.
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