The Official 2018 Belgium Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
Vaud said:
BaronVonVaderham said:
Nampahc Niloc said:
Motorsport is dangerous. We should be striving to reduce that as far as reasonably practicable, not just accepting it.
100% completely agree, and if several drivers had died in recent times due to large debris hitting their helmets then there would be no objections to the halo. As it is no f1 driver has died in the last decade from being struck by large debris (nothing would’ve saved JB at the speed he hit that tractor), ergo the halo is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, that’s why it’s being objected to.
king moronic. Its like those who think HANS devices being made mandatory are a bad idea!geeks said:
Lets not forget the big push for this (the HALO) was off the back of Justin Wilson losing his life in Indycar. Just because someone didn't die in F1 doesn't mean F1 can't learn from it! I really don't understand why someone has to die or be seriously injured before we are allowed to act, its fking moronic. Its like those who think HANS devices being made mandatory are a bad idea!
Oh I agree. I don't like the look of the halo, but I'm glad it has been introduced.king moronic. Its like those who think HANS devices being made mandatory are a bad idea!Vaud said:
geeks said:
Lets not forget the big push for this (the HALO) was off the back of Justin Wilson losing his life in Indycar. Just because someone didn't die in F1 doesn't mean F1 can't learn from it! I really don't understand why someone has to die or be seriously injured before we are allowed to act, its fking moronic. Its like those who think HANS devices being made mandatory are a bad idea!
Oh I agree. I don't like the look of the halo, but I'm glad it has been introduced.king moronic. Its like those who think HANS devices being made mandatory are a bad idea!king winglets the cars used to have, eventually it will get better, allowing teams the freedom to design there own that is subject to the same crash testing etc that they do for the other parts would improve things a bit.cuprabob said:
geeks said:
Its like those who think HANS devices being made mandatory are a bad idea!
Dale Earnhart of NASCAR was totally against the HANS device and it's widely believed it would have saved his life, if he had been wearing one when he had his accident.king debacle around it, I just couldn't understand why anyone was against it! BaronVonVaderham said:
100% completely agree, and if several drivers had died in recent times due to large debris hitting their helmets then there would be no objections to the halo.
As it is no f1 driver has died in the last decade from being struck by large debris (nothing would’ve saved JB at the speed he hit that tractor), ergo the halo is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, that’s why it’s being objected to.
Based on this, the FIA should be taking a reactive rather than pro-active stance toward driver safety? Whether or not there's evidence to show the halo has directly stopped a serious head injury or fatality, I don't understand how it can be argued that it's a bad decision to introduce it. It's not pretty to look at, but it mitigates issues caused by large debris flying into the cockpit.As it is no f1 driver has died in the last decade from being struck by large debris (nothing would’ve saved JB at the speed he hit that tractor), ergo the halo is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, that’s why it’s being objected to.
I've only had bits of shrapnel fly at me a few times on track, but looking at the screen grab below, this is a fairly uncomfortable position to be in with a wheel & tyre assembly this close to your face, and people say it's safe enough to not need something like a halo...
Sam993 said:
I guess that once again confirms that pro racers aren't necessarily experts in maths and physics, eh? Looking at Hartley's onboard footage and extrapolating below two pictures it's obvious that even if he got hit it wouldn't have been catastrophic as you said originally.
The top picture just shows how little you see of a driver in a modern F1 car.It may as well be a closed cockpit.
Viewing figures were down again this year. The reasons given by Liberty Media is the fact Massa has retired and Italians having to pay more to watch.
NFC 85 Vette said:
this is a fairly uncomfortable position to be in with a wheel & tyre assembly this close to your face
Anyone who feels uncomfortable in an open cockpit race car... shouldn't race in an open cockpit series, simple. Halo protects drivers only partially, what about those instances where it can't save the driver or it could make the situation worse? Following the knee-jerkers logic we should do everything to stop anything from causing all risks... then ban the freaking open cockpit racing.I'm not against halo btw, I'm against the enormous circle-jerk of the ignorant do-gooders that continues to persist since Sunday, mainly because I know that this is going to lead to further changes that will end up turning F1 into a Nanny1 racing series.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The top picture just shows how little you see of a driver in a modern F1 car.
It may as well be a closed cockpit.
Totally agree, I'd rather they closed the cockpit. That would at least be revolutionary and could lead to some amazing designs and progress. It'd be something like this basically but with wheels. It may as well be a closed cockpit.
Sam993 said:
Anyone who feels uncomfortable in an open cockpit race car... shouldn't race in an open cockpit series, simple. Halo protects drivers only partially, what about those instances where it can't save the driver or it could make the situation worse? Following the knee-jerkers logic we should do everything to stop anything from causing all risks... then ban the freaking open cockpit racing.
I'm not against halo btw, I'm against the enormous circle-jerk of the ignorant do-gooders that continues to persist since Sunday.
F1 must be classified as one of the safest sports even before the halo was made compulsory.I'm not against halo btw, I'm against the enormous circle-jerk of the ignorant do-gooders that continues to persist since Sunday.
Just look at Michael Schumacher situation. Raced in an era that would be considered extremely dangerous in today's standards yet had a terrible accident while on a ski slope.
Sam993 said:
Anyone who feels uncomfortable in an open cockpit race car... shouldn't race in an open cockpit series, simple. Halo protects drivers only partially, what about those instances where it can't save the driver or it could make the situation worse? Following the knee-jerkers logic we should do everything to stop anything from causing all risks... then ban the freaking open cockpit racing.
I'm not against halo btw, I'm against the enormous circle-jerk of the ignorant do-gooders that continues to persist since Sunday, mainly because I know that this is going to lead to further changes that will end up turning F1 into a Nanny1 racing series.
That's the thing, isn't it, what's next?I'm not against halo btw, I'm against the enormous circle-jerk of the ignorant do-gooders that continues to persist since Sunday, mainly because I know that this is going to lead to further changes that will end up turning F1 into a Nanny1 racing series.
If people are going to continue to believe that in almost every other race the halo saves a life, in direct contradiction of all that happened in the previous, I dunno, 20 years, then I really do fear for the sport.
Sam993 said:
Totally agree, I'd rather they closed the cockpit. That would at least be revolutionary and could lead to some amazing designs and progress. It'd be something like this basically but with wheels.
Interestingly Redbull's 2010 F1 concept "how fast could you go" have both enclosed wheels and a cockpit design. OK, it's a concept but I'm guessing they all acted as much better aero surfaces than the exposed wheels.
Sam993 said:
Anyone who feels uncomfortable in an open cockpit race car... shouldn't race in an open cockpit series, simple. Halo protects drivers only partially, what about those instances where it can't save the driver or it could make the situation worse? Following the knee-jerkers logic we should do everything to stop anything from causing all risks... then ban the freaking open cockpit racing.
I'm not against halo btw, I'm against the enormous circle-jerk of the ignorant do-gooders that continues to persist since Sunday, mainly because I know that this is going to lead to further changes that will end up turning F1 into a Nanny1 racing series.
As one of the 'ignorant do-gooders' as you put it, I best be on my way. I don't envy the FIA's job though, of trying to keep drivers safe and viewers happy - the two appear to require different solutions. I'm not against halo btw, I'm against the enormous circle-jerk of the ignorant do-gooders that continues to persist since Sunday, mainly because I know that this is going to lead to further changes that will end up turning F1 into a Nanny1 racing series.
Regarding feeling uncomfortable with objects flying at your crash helmet and being powerless to stop them - IMO, that's a normal human reaction. We can pretend that racing drivers are gladiators, fearless and having no sense of self preservation, but we're dealing with human beings who still have a sense for their own mortality, albeit it varies with the individual.
Perhaps I'm just a bit of a wimp
NFC 85 Vette said:
I don't envy the FIA's job though, of trying to keep drivers safe
Ultimately FIA needs to decide what F1 should be, racing at speeds always comes at cost and trying to protect drivers upper parts of the body when the main feature of the series is it's open cockpit, that will never work. It's like IATA trying to say that they want to cover the Earth (at least under flight paths) with soft substance which needs to be thick enough to safely let the planes crash without killing anyone. It won't happen.Not the most important issue in the whole Halo scheme, but since their introduction teams now seem to clip 2 screen to the cockpit when the car is in the garage (making the driver all but impossible to see) - does anyone know if the additional screen shows additional information to what was previously on a single screen, or is the same information which just has to be on 2 screens now because the Halo strut is in the way of a clear view?
Sam993 said:
NFC 85 Vette said:
I don't envy the FIA's job though, of trying to keep drivers safe
Ultimately FIA needs to decide what F1 should be, racing at speeds always comes at cost and trying to protect drivers upper parts of the body when the main feature of the series is it's open cockpit, that will never work. It's like IATA trying to say that they want to cover the Earth (at least under flight paths) with soft substance which needs to be thick enough to safely let the planes crash without killing anyone. It won't happen.We SHOULD question whether it should continue as open cockpit. As a “do gooder” I happen to want to live in a safer world. People need to pose these difficult questions and sit back to take an objective discussion.
The question is: would making it closed cockpit disproportionately detract from the sport?
From aerodynamic and safety points of view, closed cockpits are far superior.
Arguments against: it fundamentally changes Formula 1. Well here are some other fundamental changes that have occurred over the years (to name but a few):
- Introduction of wings
- introduction of car sponsorship and move away from national colours
- multiple changes to the qualifying format
- single tyre supplier
Fundamental change is not in itself a bad thing.
Finally, I’m not advocating for closed cockpits, but when I look at it objectively, I find it hard to argue against.
Nampahc Niloc said:
We SHOULD question whether it should continue as open cockpit. As a “do gooder” I happen to want to live in a safer world.
(...)
Finally, I’m not advocating for closed cockpits, but when I look at it objectively, I find it hard to argue against.
It's like asking should cakes be made like cakes or can we make them so that they help us lose weight. The answer is no, you can't, even the "healthy" cakes cause health side-effects. If you don't want to suffer from cake related issues stop eating cakes. BUT WHERE'S FUN IN THAT?(...)
Finally, I’m not advocating for closed cockpits, but when I look at it objectively, I find it hard to argue against.
Sam993 said:
It's like asking should cakes be made like cakes or can we make them so that they help us lose weight. The answer is no, you can't, even the "healthy" cakes cause health side-effects. If you don't want to suffer from cake related issues stop eating cakes. BUT WHERE'S FUN IN THAT?
Exactly! How many F1 drivers have received any injuries in the last few years whilst actually racing (JB aside) ?
Pretty sure the answer is none, which goes to show that the current safety measures are more than adequate despite some monstrous accidents.
If we play the ‘what if’ game then as others have mentioned the only logical conclusion is to ban all motorsport as it’s literally impossible to remove all risk from an activity that involves significant masses travelling at very high velocities.
BaronVonVaderham said:
Sam993 said:
It's like asking should cakes be made like cakes or can we make them so that they help us lose weight. The answer is no, you can't, even the "healthy" cakes cause health side-effects. If you don't want to suffer from cake related issues stop eating cakes. BUT WHERE'S FUN IN THAT?
Exactly! How many F1 drivers have received any injuries in the last few years whilst actually racing (JB aside) ?
Pretty sure the answer is none, which goes to show that the current safety measures are more than adequate despite some monstrous accidents.
If we play the ‘what if’ game then as others have mentioned the only logical conclusion is to ban all motorsport as it’s literally impossible to remove all risk from an activity that involves significant masses travelling at very high velocities.
The question is can F1 be safer without making unreasonable sacrifices? The answer is yes. However banning racing would count as unreasonable in the majority of people’s opinions.
Nampahc Niloc said:
That’s not true at all. No one is talking about removing all risk. Just minimising what is reasonably foreseeable.
The question is can F1 be safer without making unreasonable sacrifices? The answer is yes. However banning racing would count as unreasonable in the majority of people’s opinions.
^^ Well put.The question is can F1 be safer without making unreasonable sacrifices? The answer is yes. However banning racing would count as unreasonable in the majority of people’s opinions.
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