Our Damon in Adelaide

Our Damon in Adelaide

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cb1965

2,686 posts

82 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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heebeegeetee said:
cb1965 said:
There's no factual source to support yours either, but at least mine is formed from spending a lot of time in other countries amongst F1 people.... if you ask F1 fans or people within the sport from countries outside of Britain about Adelaide 94 (and I have many times for reasons that you can probably work out if you try really hard) most don't even have it on their radar and then recall it as a racing incident. It's only a 'big thing' amongst British fans where 'our Damon was robbed' lives on as some great injustice.... even Hill himself has got over it (and did so several decades ago) so perhaps the Brits should too.
Oh come on, surely you can see why? It's a bit of British motor racing history, and it's not part of French, Belgian, Dutch, Malaysian or whoever's history. Damon is the son of a revered British motor racing champion, who himself came from a classic period of British motor racing history, possibly the zenith of the history. Had it involved a French driver I'm sure French fans would have a different view, as would Malaysian or |Chinese or Japanese or Australian or whoever.

I'm sorry but you're flogging a dead horse here. We've seen one poster who says he was at the race and spoke to numerous non British fans and they expressed their view, plus as stated Schumacher was to do exactly the same again just three years later.

Schumacher was a great driver, I thought he was magnificent, he was better than his rivals post-Senna. But he's not fit to be categorised amongst the likes of Fangio (my favourite quote: "he won five world championships for four different manufacturers and never fell out with anybody") or Clark or Stewart. I mean Clark or Stewart would never turn in deliberately against rivals, I doubt the thought would ever cross their minds, and the sport was certainly no less competitive back then, not with so many tiny British outfits of 'garagistes' coming out with ever more world-changing designs.
I wondered when PH's rent a gob would turn up and here you are. Look I'm not going to get in to this with you as you ignore logic and anything that doesn't suit you in arguments on here so it will be another waste of time, but you really do need to realise that Jerez 97 and Adelaide 94 have no similarities whatsoever outside of the contact happening. If you can't understand that then you are not really in a position to discuss this.

El stovey

24,482 posts

200 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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cb1965 said:
I wondered when PH's rent a gob would turn up and here you are. Look I'm not going to get in to this with you as you ignore logic and anything that doesn't suit you in arguments on here so it will be another waste of time, but you really do need to realise that Jerez 97 and Adelaide 94 have no similarities whatsoever outside of the contact happening. If you can't understand that then you are not really in a position to discuss this.
I’m sorry but you’re making stuff up to suit your view.

I was living in Adelaide and was at the race and watched the Hill Schumacher crash, I wasn’t a Hill fan. The feeling in the media and after the race amongst all the fans I spoke to was that Schumacher had cheated. None of the people I spoke to were British. Australians love a winner and didn’t like the complaining brits especially Hill and even they thought Schumacher had cheated. Australian friends of mine who were Schumacher fans even thought he’d cheated.

I’m pretty surprised by your historical revisionism to be honest.



StevieBee

7,037 posts

192 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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Perhaps it would help if we remind ourselves visually of the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91JoW4mSiZo

What is telling is at around 0.21 to 0.23, you see Schumacher start to take the corner but realises that Hill is on the inside so jinks back to the left to give him room. He then thinks better of it and turns right - harder than he needed to - into Hill.

I wouldn't say the video provides irrefutable evidence of wrong-doing but it does seem odd that a driver of Schumacher's calibre would turn in when he knows there's another driver occupying the space he is aiming for.


cb1965

2,686 posts

82 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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El stovey said:
cb1965 said:
I wondered when PH's rent a gob would turn up and here you are. Look I'm not going to get in to this with you as you ignore logic and anything that doesn't suit you in arguments on here so it will be another waste of time, but you really do need to realise that Jerez 97 and Adelaide 94 have no similarities whatsoever outside of the contact happening. If you can't understand that then you are not really in a position to discuss this.
I’m sorry but you’re making stuff up to suit your view.

I was living in Adelaide and was at the race and watched the Hill Schumacher crash, I wasn’t a Hill fan. The feeling in the media and after the race amongst all the fans I spoke to was that Schumacher had cheated. None of the people I spoke to were British. Australians love a winner and didn’t like the complaining brits especially Hill and even they thought Schumacher had cheated. Australian friends of mine who were Schumacher fans even thought he’d cheated.

I’m pretty surprised by your historical revisionism to be honest.
At the time I think you're probably right, but with the benefit of hindsight a lot of people realised that it was not pre-meditated including a good few Brits (some who have posted on here). The British media however have never let it go and we have an army of F1 fans still convinced Schumacher cruelly robbed 'our Damon'. I am also increasingly amazed at the number of people I come across who saw this event happen live at the race.... not saying you didn't, but Adelaide was not an easy circuit to get a good view at and I would say as few as 1000 people probably had a good view of the incident, the funny thing is I've met or conversed with at least 2000 of them wink

DoubleD

6,644 posts

45 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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We will probably never know for sure is the only answer to this.
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heebeegeetee

26,367 posts

185 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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El stovey said:
I’m sorry but you’re making stuff up to suit your view.
It's a common theme of his, that and consistently failing to persuade people of his view of the world, be he talking about cyclists, London or F1 Here he is failing to persuade people that the nation agrees with his view of London. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...laugh

But back on topic - what he fails to see is that most drivers don't get involved with kind if stuff, whereas a small group (think Senna, Schumacher, Alonso etc) get involved in this type of stuff multiple times. So yes, Schumacher was given the benefit of the doubt the first time, but I think we subsequently learned that it was wrong to do so. I mean not only did we later get Monaco 2006 but then there was his action against Barrichello in 2010, which was disgusting. I mean, boy, he didn't half accrue some well deserved penalties, and I don't think it's a "British" thing at all to say so.

Having said all that, and the Barichello thing aside, I don't really have too much of a problem with all those antics. Imo so long as drivers don't beat women or abuse children I'm not really too bothered what they get up to. smile

Sam993

1,302 posts

9 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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cb1965 said:
Sam993 said:
cb1965 said:
Eh? I didn't say anything about DACH countries or make anything up, I said most F1 fans outside of Britain.

You seem to read things that aren't written.
You and your chums don't qualify as majority or most or whatever you think the power they think they have might be. There's literally no factual source which you could provide to support your wishful thinking.
There's no factual source to support yours either, but at least mine is formed from spending a lot of time in other countries amongst F1 people.... if you ask F1 fans or people within the sport from countries outside of Britain about Adelaide 94 (and I have many times for reasons that you can probably work out if you try really hard) most don't even have it on their radar and then recall it as a racing incident. It's only a 'big thing' amongst British fans where 'our Damon was robbed' lives on as some great injustice.... even Hill himself has got over it (and did so several decades ago) so perhaps the Brits should too.
Here's a little "factual" story for you, I spent most of my life outside Britain, and it's completely not true that most people don't even have it on their radar... It's one of the most remembered situations for many reasons, one being Schumacher's first championship, second it being the year when Senna died. Those who were old enough and were truly into the sport remember it like it was yesterday. Even Germans I worked with were admitting that it was a dirty move at the time (and even years later). Obviously those who took all their wisdom from RTL and their "unbiased" reporting were spouting crap like you do (there was a lot of random crowd who started following F1 because of Schumacher and the were most vocal) but luckily the rest was balanced and could see that "the best" driver in the world was either very nasty or couldn't use his mirrors.

Gary29

1,818 posts

36 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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It was a 1/4 of a century ago, forget about it.

I was a spotty kid at the time, and Damon was my hero, I think I actually cried when MS took him out to win the championship.

I've moved on.

Derek Smith

32,284 posts

185 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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I've posted a little video of the 1994 British GP as seen from the stands at Stowe.

As can be seen - https://writewheel.uk/old-blugger/ - Schumacher was still ahead at the start of Vale.

It was no momentary lapse of concentration by MS. It was a deliberate ploy. He took a chance.




REALIST123

10,504 posts

90 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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Derek Smith said:
I've posted a little video of the 1994 British GP as seen from the stands at Stowe.

As can be seen - https://writewheel.uk/old-blugger/ - Schumacher was still ahead at the start of Vale.

It was no momentary lapse of concentration by MS. It was a deliberate ploy. He took a chance.



To gain what?


Sam993

1,302 posts

9 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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Derek Smith said:
I've posted a little video of the 1994 British GP as seen from the stands at Stowe.

As can be seen - https://writewheel.uk/old-blugger/ - Schumacher was still ahead at the start of Vale.

It was no momentary lapse of concentration by MS. It was a deliberate ploy. He took a chance.
I think that he was a bit of a wobble maybe even borderline psycho (almost running Rubens into a wall at Hungaroring was clearly an indication of that).

Didn't Ron Dennis have a conversation with him in his early days telling him to be careful because he seems a bit too hardcore (as in careless) at times? It was at some official function or something like that IIRC.

Gary29

1,818 posts

36 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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Sam993 said:
Didn't Ron Dennis have a conversation with him in his early days telling him to be careful because he seems a bit too hardcore (as in careless) at times? It was at some official function or something like that IIRC.
He was trying to sign him for Mclaren and the conversation just went on with Ron telling him to look after himself, think there may have been red wine involved.

Evangelion

4,884 posts

115 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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Sam993 said:
You could argue that it was a racing incident and despite many Hill fans worldwide (the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man) seeing it as deliberate there was no way to prove it. Until Jerez 1997. If anyone had any doubts they should have vanished by then. The guy is mentally unstable (as he had proven in subsequent years too) and should have been stripped of his 1994 title too.
Do you therefore agree that Senna should have been stripped of his 1990 title because of his conduct at the last race of that season?

Sam993

1,302 posts

9 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
quotequote all
Evangelion said:
Sam993 said:
You could argue that it was a racing incident and despite many Hill fans worldwide (the "our British Damon" thing is a bullste statement of a deluded old man) seeing it as deliberate there was no way to prove it. Until Jerez 1997. If anyone had any doubts they should have vanished by then. The guy is mentally unstable (as he had proven in subsequent years too) and should have been stripped of his 1994 title too.
Do you therefore agree that Senna should have been stripped of his 1990 title because of his conduct at the last race of that season?
Leave our Ayrton alone!

cb1965

2,686 posts

82 months

Thursday 23rd August 2018
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Ayrton Senna decided before the 1990 Japan GP even started that he was taking Prost out, he admitted it one year later.

cb1965

2,686 posts

82 months

Thursday 23rd August 2018
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Sam993 said:
Here's a little "factual" story for you, I spent most of my life outside Britain, and it's completely not true that most people don't even have it on their radar... It's one of the most remembered situations for many reasons, one being Schumacher's first championship, second it being the year when Senna died. Those who were old enough and were truly into the sport remember it like it was yesterday. Even Germans I worked with were admitting that it was a dirty move at the time (and even years later). Obviously those who took all their wisdom from RTL and their "unbiased" reporting were spouting crap like you do (there was a lot of random crowd who started following F1 because of Schumacher and the were most vocal) but luckily the rest was balanced and could see that "the best" driver in the world was either very nasty or couldn't use his mirrors.
You seem to do this wild extrapolation thing a lot. I was talking about the Hill/Schumacher racing incident at Adelaide 1994 not the season as a whole. Of course people remember Senna's death FFS and yes they do remember the incident itself, bit only when you ask, it just doesn't loom large on their radar as some great injustice like it does with people like you. Probably because it wasn't, the best driver won the 1994 championship despite having 4 less races or results to take into account.

bobbo89

2,441 posts

82 months

Thursday 23rd August 2018
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I was born in 1989 so this thread has lead me to watch this for the very first time with a fresh set of eyes and no bias towards either driver.

To me, it appears that after going into the barrier, Schumi comes back on track watching Hill in his mirror the entire time deliberatly keeping it wide to block Hill going around the outside.

Hill then takes a dive up the inside as Schumi's block has left the door wide open but upon noticing this, Schumi steers straight into the side of Hill as a desperate final attempt at blocking a pass.

Cheating it wasn't but it was definatly unsporting.

LaurasOtherHalf

14,201 posts

133 months

Thursday 23rd August 2018
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To be honest I'm astounded anyone can watch Adelaide '94 and not think MS deliberately took DH out, astounded! To be honest, if Senna hadn't admitted it Suzuka '90 looked more accidental and Prost's Suzuka '89 certainly did!

So Schumacher cheated in my book, he wasn't the first by a bloody long way and he certainly wasn't the last, never mind it wasn't the last of his own.

Hey-ho.

I do think he is up there with the greatest despite his cheating however, I don't "like" Alonso either but to deny him his greatness because he's a knob would be churlish.

I know some people dismiss Schumacher on account of having the team, the FIA, the tyres etc all working towards his favour but to me, that is one of his best qualities.

Hamilton is amazing in the hybrid/crap tyres era but that is a happy coincidence that those advantages play to his strengths, the same as Vettel's uncanny ability in the blown defuser era-these drivers didn't build that advantage themselves-they lucked into something to which they could undeniably exploit better than most others.

Schumacher created all the advantages for himself. Plus cheated quite a bit smile

MrVert

2,835 posts

176 months

Thursday 23rd August 2018
quotequote all
bobbo89 said:
I was born in 1989 so this thread has lead me to watch this for the very first time with a fresh set of eyes and no bias towards either driver.

To me, it appears that after going into the barrier, Schumi comes back on track watching Hill in his mirror the entire time deliberatly keeping it wide to block Hill going around the outside.

Hill then takes a dive up the inside as Schumi's block has left the door wide open but upon noticing this, Schumi steers straight into the side of Hill as a desperate final attempt at blocking a pass.

Cheating it wasn't but it was definatly unsporting.
Spot on. 100% agree. It's completely obvious when you watch it.

Sam993

1,302 posts

9 months

Thursday 23rd August 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
Sam993 said:
Here's a little "factual" story for you, I spent most of my life outside Britain, and it's completely not true that most people don't even have it on their radar... It's one of the most remembered situations for many reasons, one being Schumacher's first championship, second it being the year when Senna died. Those who were old enough and were truly into the sport remember it like it was yesterday. Even Germans I worked with were admitting that it was a dirty move at the time (and even years later). Obviously those who took all their wisdom from RTL and their "unbiased" reporting were spouting crap like you do (there was a lot of random crowd who started following F1 because of Schumacher and the were most vocal) but luckily the rest was balanced and could see that "the best" driver in the world was either very nasty or couldn't use his mirrors.
You seem to do this wild extrapolation thing a lot. I was talking about the Hill/Schumacher racing incident at Adelaide 1994 not the season as a whole. Of course people remember Senna's death FFS and yes they do remember the incident itself, bit only when you ask, it just doesn't loom large on their radar as some great injustice like it does with people like you. Probably because it wasn't, the best driver won the 1994 championship despite having 4 less races or results to take into account.
OH THE IRONY! hehe