The Michael Schumacher Debate Thread

[anonymous-user]

Gaz. said:

cb1965 said:

I actually think Senna pushing Prost against the pitwall in Estoril was as bad as Suzuka and certainly as bad as Schumacher/Barrichello, but no one (other than Prost) seems to remember it. I guess they would if Senna had been German.

Do you have a link to Senna pushing Prost into the pitwall? I can’t find it.

Search for Senna Prost Estoril wall, I am sure it comes up.

Prost was angrier than I have ever seen him about it and still talks about it in interviews, he cites it as the end of his personal relationship with Senna. While it's not as tight as Barrichello/Schumacher it was doen at a time when the cars were much less safe and it just wasn't the accepted way of doing things on an F1 track.... I'm still a massive Senna fan btw, but he did overstep the mark on occasion.

[JNW1]

Gaz. said:

cb1965 said:

I actually think Senna pushing Prost against the pitwall in Estoril was as bad as Suzuka and certainly as bad as Schumacher/Barrichello, but no one (other than Prost) seems to remember it. I guess they would if Senna had been German.

Do you have a link to Senna pushing Prost into the pitwall? I can’t find it.

Here you go!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf_AwV66ss0

Like I say, not a great move but IMO not as bad as Schumacher on Barrichello below (look at how close Rubens is pushed to the wall in the view at around 15 seconds in!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLwR7F9EX14

[angrymoby]

cb1965 said:

I actually think Senna pushing Prost against the pitwall in Estoril was as bad as Suzuka and certainly as bad as Schumacher/Barrichello, but no one (other than Prost) seems to remember it. I guess they would if Senna had been German.

nowhere near (again!) ...car & half (don't make me get the ruler out again)

the whataboutery is strong in this thread

Edited by angrymoby on Saturday 8th September 14:36

[JNW1]

Gaz. said:

JNW1 said:

Here you go!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf_AwV66ss0

Like I say, not a great move but IMO not as bad as Schumacher on Barrichello below (look at how close Rubens is pushed to the wall in the view at around 15 seconds in!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLwR7F9EX14

Is that it????

The first clip is Senna squeezing Prost towards the pit wall at Estoril; were you expecting to see something different?!!

To be fair it probably looks quite mild compared to some of the driving we've seen subsequently but swerving at people when they were trying to overtake wasn't the done thing back in the 1980's; remember cars and circuits were much less safe then!

[TobyTR]

The humble side of M.Schumacher here:

After winning 2000 WDC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6aYcxqF6bc

The respect shown here is mega. I like how Schumacher takes the time to hug every single person in the team too.

Would we ever see that incredible respect shown here between him and Hakkinen, with Hamilton and Vettel? I very much doubt it. In Hakkinen's words "In order to be a good winner, sometimes you have to be a good loser too" - both Hamilton and Vettel can learn a lot from Hakkinen. Class act.

Spain 2001 Schumacher apologising for Hakkinen's engine failure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8qbRaDhlQ

[JNW1]

TobyTR said:

The humble side of M.Schumacher here:

After winning 2000 WDC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6aYcxqF6bc

The respect shown here is mega. I like how Schumacher takes the time to hug every single person in the team too.

Would we ever see that incredible respect shown here between him and Hakkinen, with Hamilton and Vettel? I very much doubt it. In Hakkinen's words "In order to be a good winner, sometimes you have to be a good loser too" - both Hamilton and Vettel can learn a lot from Hakkinen. Class act.

Spain 2001 Schumacher apologising for Hakkinen's engine failure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8qbRaDhlQ

Yes, Schumacher always seemed to have a genuine respect for Hakkinen. Didn't stop him squeezing Hakkinen towards the grass at high speed at Spa though (you can see what Hakkinen thought of it by his gesture about 20 seconds in) but that day Mika had the last laugh on the following lap with one of the all-time great F1 overtakes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd0LMH6yijA

[anonymous-user]

JNW1 said:

Gaz. said:

JNW1 said:

Here you go!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf_AwV66ss0

Like I say, not a great move but IMO not as bad as Schumacher on Barrichello below (look at how close Rubens is pushed to the wall in the view at around 15 seconds in!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLwR7F9EX14

Is that it????

The first clip is Senna squeezing Prost towards the pit wall at Estoril; were you expecting to see something different?!!

To be fair it probably looks quite mild compared to some of the driving we've seen subsequently but swerving at people when they were trying to overtake wasn't the done thing back in the 1980's; remember cars and circuits were much less safe then!

As were the cars, but people like angrymoby can't get their heads round that, too busy getting their rulers out and trying to be smart.... ironic really!

[angrymoby]

cb1965 said:

As were the cars, but people like angrymoby can't get their heads round that, too busy getting their rulers out and trying to be smart.... ironic really!

deflection, whataboutery AND ad hominem ...congratulations

little challenge for you cb, try defending this, without resorting to any of the above...



good luck

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

As were the cars, but people like angrymoby can't get their heads round that, too busy getting their rulers out and trying to be smart.... ironic really!

deflection, whataboutery AND ad hominem ...congratulations

little challenge for you cb, try defending this, without resorting to any of the above...



good luck

Why do you think I need to defend anything to do with Schumacher? We were talking about Senna. You are an oddball.

[angrymoby]

cb1965 said:

Why do you think I need to defend anything to do with Schumacher? We were talking about Senna. You are an oddball.

you do actually know what deflection, whataboutery & ad hominem are, dont you?

& just in case you forgot...

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

Why do you think I need to defend anything to do with Schumacher? We were talking about Senna. You are an oddball.

you do actually know what deflection, whataboutery & ad hominem are, dont you?

& just in case you forgot...

Sigh..... yes I do. You, however, seem to assume that they are just accusations you throw into a thread when someone disagrees with you. To explain, in the context of the thread at that point Senna was being discussed hence the comments. It's not hard to grasp really.

Just to distill it down and to prevent the misery of further interaction with you I think Senna being treated as a 'god' and Schumacher as evil personified is silly as Senna was as bad as Schumacher all other things being equal. Overall I admire both so have no axe to grind with either. You, however, have a different opinion that makes me think you are not exactly approaching this objectively (I'm being polite) so let's leave it there.

[angrymoby]

cb1965 said:

Sigh..... yes I do. You, however, seem to assume that they are just accusations you throw into a thread when someone disagrees with you. To explain, in the context of the thread at that point Senna was being discussed hence the comments. It's not hard to grasp really.

exactly the response i expected from you, when you're shown to be incorrect or inaccurate

cb1965 said:

Just to distill it down and to prevent the misery of further interaction with you I think Senna being treated as a 'god' and Schumacher as evil personified is silly as Senna was as bad as Schumacher all other things being equal.

Senna, wasn't a 'god' ...he was flawed & a massive tw4t at times, the only redeeming aspect of named incidents being that he was a reactionary personality & was reacting to either perceived or imaginary injustices

Schumacher's indiscretions seemed to have no justification at all, other than the 'will to win' & the belief he could get away with it

'94 ...just wanted to win a WDC
'97 ...just wanted to win a WDC
'06 ...just wanted pole
'10 ...fk only knows

so to me & probably a lot of others- not the same

cb1965 said:

Overall I admire both so have no axe to grind with either.

suggest you go back & re-read your own posts

Edited by angrymoby on Monday 10th September 11:13

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

Overall I admire both so have no axe to grind with either.

suggest you go back & re-read your own posts

Why? Is it not possible in your world to both admire someone and embrace the fact they have flaws. FFS you're hard work.

[angrymoby]

cb1965 said:

Why? Is it not possible in your world to both admire someone and embrace the fact they have flaws. FFS you're hard work.

of course it is ...but you have to have a line somewhere, Michael for me & many others - crossed it & negates 'some' of his positives that he undoubtedly had

for me, Senna is right up to to that line, but still not enough for me to rank him MY outright no.1

Is THAT really that hard to grasp?

i personally think you're letting the fact that you met him & thought he was a lovely guy cloud YOUR viewpoint, so i fully expect to be hard work to you

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

Why? Is it not possible in your world to both admire someone and embrace the fact they have flaws. FFS you're hard work.

of course it is ...but you have to have a line somewhere, Michael for me & many others - crossed it & negates 'some' of his positives that he undoubtedly had

for me, Senna is right up to to that line, but still not enough for me to rank him MY outright no.1

Is THAT really that hard to grasp?

i personally think you're letting the fact that you met him & thought he was a lovely guy cloud YOUR viewpoint, so i fully expect to be hard work to you

No you're hard work because you seem unable to accept others can think differently to you. I also have a pretty negative opinion of people who use terms like massive tt to describe sports stars and the likes .... it's not like most have any real knowledge of the person other than your exposure to them via TV etc. and the musings of the press of course. Fine to criticise their failings if you wish, but flat out insulting them seems childish .. again I'm being polite.

[angrymoby]

cb1965 said:

No you're hard work because you seem unable to accept others can think differently to you. I also have a pretty negative opinion of people who use terms like massive tt to describe sports stars and the likes .... it's not like most have any real knowledge of the person other than your exposure to them via TV etc. and the musings of the press of course. Fine to criticise their failings if you wish, but flat out insulting them seems childish .. again I'm being polite.

again, you seem unable to separate the driver, from the man

he had massive tw4t tendacies as a DRIVER ...his tw4ttishness is there for all to see ON TRACK with THEIR OWN EYES & yet you seem to be either ignoring it, defending it or deflecting away from it

I care not that you're offended/ or offended on someone else's behalf & care even less about your politeness tbh ...but your continued deflection is noted

Edited by angrymoby on Monday 10th September 19:04

[JNW1]

cb1965 said:

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

As were the cars, but people like angrymoby can't get their heads round that, too busy getting their rulers out and trying to be smart.... ironic really!

deflection, whataboutery AND ad hominem ...congratulations

little challenge for you cb, try defending this, without resorting to any of the above...



good luck

Why do you think I need to defend anything to do with Schumacher? We were talking about Senna. You are an oddball.

A few posts back you said Senna pushing Prost towards the pit wall at Estoril was "certainly as bad" as what Schumacher did to Barrichello in Hungary; however, I think most would agree the videos suggest otherwise (as indeed does the picture above). Seems to me there's quite a difference between the two with what Schumacher did being notably worse; to argue they're the same is to argue black is white IMO.

[sparta6]

angrymoby said:

he had massive tt tendacies as a DRIVER ...

In your opinion.


Other opinions are available from all good retail outlets

[angrymoby]

sparta6 said:

In your opinion.


Other opinions are available from all good retail outlets

hopefully, that should be obvious

but then again, i'm not the one that suggested that posters should leave this thread & take their opinions elswhere, when things weren't panning out their way (for clarity- not you btw)

Edited by angrymoby on Monday 10th September 15:19

[entropy]

JNW1 said:

Yes, Schumacher always seemed to have a genuine respect for Hakkinen. Didn't stop him squeezing Hakkinen towards the grass at high speed at Spa though (you can see what Hakkinen thought of it by his gesture about 20 seconds in) but that day Mika had the last laugh on the following lap with one of the all-time great F1 overtakes!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd0LMH6yijA

The two have history https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuvL8dDQxnc

angrymoby said:

cb1965 said:

I actually think Senna pushing Prost against the pitwall in Estoril was as bad as Suzuka and certainly as bad as Schumacher/Barrichello, but no one (other than Prost) seems to remember it. I guess they would if Senna had been German.

nowhere near (again!) ...car & half (don't make me get the ruler out again)

the whataboutery is strong in this thread

Edited by angrymoby on Saturday 8th September 14:36

As tame as it looks by today's standards Prost wasn't best pleased by it and still isn't. Post-race he said: "If he wants to win the championship that badly then he can have it".

Senna retorted that he didn't like Prost squeezing him to the edge of the track. https://youtu.be/pFUumlvlxD0?t=2023 Not that I condone what he did but again its tame by today's standards and today we know that Senna takes things personally.