The Michael Schumacher Debate Thread

[F1GTRUeno]

Those 19 laps at almost qualifying pace in Hungary 1998 is enough to discard any attempt at belittling just how bloody good he was.

Brawn gave him an almost impossible task and he just went for it at a track where there is no rest whatsoever in a car that wasn't as good as the McLaren.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xx7mxw
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xx7yl9

Watch the race here. They switched to a three stop and he had to get a 25 second advantage to make it work. He made it work.

[TobyTR]

groomi said:

TobyTR said:

...until Glock's tyres abruptly went off

Daft comment. He was on dry tyres on a wet track.

Not that daft, pal. It started raining at the end of the penultimate lap. Therefore they were ineffective/did go off.

[SeeFive]

TobyTR said:

Yeah but in all fairness there's a bit of a difference between 20-odd seconds remaining in a race and 8 races still to go. When Massa crossed the finish line everyone thought he had won the title until Glock's tyres abruptly went off

One evening at a hotel, a valet wrote “Ferrari” on the card attached to the key of my Corvette. I picked up the keys about 14 hours later, and despite what he wrote and thought for 14 hours, it still wasn’t a Ferrari.

Massa was never world champion by any measurement despite folks thinking in error, and some still doing so.

[TobyTR]

SeeFive said:

TobyTR said:

Yeah but in all fairness there's a bit of a difference between 20-odd seconds remaining in a race and 8 races still to go. When Massa crossed the finish line everyone thought he had won the title until Glock's tyres abruptly went off

One evening at a hotel, a valet wrote “Ferrari” on the card attached to the key of my Corvette. I picked up the keys about 14 hours later, and despite what he wrote and thought for 14 hours, it still wasn’t a Ferrari.

Massa was never world champion by any measurement despite folks thinking in error, and some still doing so.

I'm not saying Massa is/was champion, what has been mentioned is what happened in those 20-odd seconds and how close that title fight really was - with Hamilton gifted the 5th place needed on the penultimate corner of the last lap, of the last race.

iirc this all stems from whether Felipe Massa was a decent F1 driver or not. In my opinion he was decent. Much in the same way I consider Hulkenberg, Timo Glock, Jarno Trulli, Perez etc decent

[Sam993]

TobyTR said:

SeeFive said:

TobyTR said:

Yeah but in all fairness there's a bit of a difference between 20-odd seconds remaining in a race and 8 races still to go. When Massa crossed the finish line everyone thought he had won the title until Glock's tyres abruptly went off

One evening at a hotel, a valet wrote “Ferrari” on the card attached to the key of my Corvette. I picked up the keys about 14 hours later, and despite what he wrote and thought for 14 hours, it still wasn’t a Ferrari.

Massa was never world champion by any measurement despite folks thinking in error, and some still doing so.

I'm not saying Massa is/was champion, what has been mentioned is what happened in those 20-odd seconds and how close that title fight really was - with Hamilton gifted the 5th place needed on the penultimate corner of the last lap, of the last race.

iirc this all stems from whether Felipe Massa was a decent F1 driver or not. In my opinion he was decent. Much in the same way I consider Hulkenberg, Timo Glock, Jarno Trulli, Perez etc decent

By following this logic Kimi "was gifted" his championship in 2007 too. And there were other instances where champions became champions because of someone else doing something/screwing up. It's irrelevant. People only remember those who became champions, 2nd place is always the first loser.

[TobyTR]

Sam993 said:

By following this logic Kimi "was gifted" his championship in 2007 too. And there were other instances where champions became champions because of someone else doing something/screwing up. It's irrelevant. People only remember those who became champions, 2nd place is always the first loser.

But did Kimi win the 2007 championship on the penultimate corner of the last lap? No. That is the point mentioned. Every WDC is deserved because they've put themselves in a position to win it, obviously.

Your average house-holder might only remember the champions, but is that the same for your average F1 fan. Anyway, I think it's fair to say Massa was decent. Anything less is churlish

[SeeFive]

TobyTR said:

SeeFive said:

TobyTR said:

Yeah but in all fairness there's a bit of a difference between 20-odd seconds remaining in a race and 8 races still to go. When Massa crossed the finish line everyone thought he had won the title until Glock's tyres abruptly went off

One evening at a hotel, a valet wrote “Ferrari” on the card attached to the key of my Corvette. I picked up the keys about 14 hours later, and despite what he wrote and thought for 14 hours, it still wasn’t a Ferrari.

Massa was never world champion by any measurement despite folks thinking in error, and some still doing so.

I'm not saying Massa is/was champion, what has been mentioned is what happened in those 20-odd seconds and how close that title fight really was - with Hamilton gifted the 5th place needed on the penultimate corner of the last lap, of the last race.

iirc this all stems from whether Felipe Massa was a decent F1 driver or not. In my opinion he was decent. Much in the same way I consider Hulkenberg, Timo Glock, Jarno Trulli, Perez etc decent

Indeed you did not, and that travesty did not happen thankfully, not even for 20 seconds

Felipe was decent enough, and a happy, friendly guy off track but not WDC quality.

The thing that really got up my nose with him is that he would never admit making an error when colliding with another driver, of which there were many examples where he obviously had at least a share of the blame. He consistently turned in on drivers passing on the inside, ran drivers off the track passing on the outside and over defended when the cause was lost, frequently resulting in damage. His later career driving was quite immature given his experience bordering on unsporting.

But yes, you are right, he could be quick under the right circumstances. However, put a top flight driver such as Michael in the car he had that year, keep the same level of FIA benefit as Massa had that year and Hamilton would have been second in the WDC.

That said, just like those 20 seconds in Brazil, if my aunt had a cock she could be my uncle.

Back on topic. IMHO, Michael was probably one of the most gifted and talented cheats ever to grace the sport. I just wish he had stuck to his gifts and talents alone. He would still have had major success and we would not even be having this discussion.

[TobyTR]

F1GTRUeno said:

Those 19 laps at almost qualifying pace in Hungary 1998 is enough to discard any attempt at belittling just how bloody good he was.

Brawn gave him an almost impossible task and he just went for it at a track where there is no rest whatsoever in a car that wasn't as good as the McLaren.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xx7mxw
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xx7yl9

Watch the race here. They switched to a three stop and he had to get a 25 second advantage to make it work. He made it work.

That was mega Great find

Reminded me a bit of 2007 Monaco and the difference between Schumacher's ability to do this and others

Alonso pitted on Lap 26 (with a lead of 4.5 seconds), making Lap 27 his outlap, so his first flying lap was Lap 28. On that lap he set a 1:15.4, while Hamilton set a 1:15.3, less than a tenth faster, and the gap between them was 15.3 seconds. During Hamilton's "overcut" laps, he set fastest lap, but Alonso on heavy fuel and new tyres, was only 0.090s slower.

After the pit stop cycle, the gap between them was pretty much the same. It's true that McLaren did pit Hamilton earlier than planned, but he wasn't fast enough to make it work. In the second stint, the gap grew to 11 seconds.

Hamilton needed to find 4-5 seconds in the next 3 laps to emerge ahead of Alonso, which wasn't going to happen and since Hamilton was actively touching the barriers trying to do so McLaren called him into the pits.

[Paul-M]

I don’t think Lewis was gifted the title by Glock being on the wrong tyres. Lewis was ahead of the toyota’s when the rain started falling and made the decision to switch tyres along with the rest of the top runners. The toyota team saw a chance to get more points by taking a gamble and staying out on dry’s. In the end it didn’t work albeit very close! There’s an onboard video of Glock driving the last lap on YouTube. His car looked practically undriveable. Had Toyota made the same strategy decision as the other cars around them Lewis would still have been WC just without the last corner drama!

[anonymous-user]

Paul-M said:

I don’t think Lewis was gifted the title by Glock being on the wrong tyres. Lewis was ahead of the toyota’s when the rain started falling and made the decision to switch tyres along with the rest of the top runners. The toyota team saw a chance to get more points by taking a gamble and staying out on dry’s. In the end it didn’t work albeit very close! There’s an onboard video of Glock driving the last lap on YouTube. His car looked practically undriveable. Had Toyota made the same strategy decision as the other cars around them Lewis would still have been WC just without the last corner drama!

Given that Toyota and Ferrari were heading to court at the time people always questioned Glock's sudden lack of pace on that last lap, I just think it was down to the conditions, but some around the sport wonder if the conditions weren't the only 'problem'.

[Sam993]

cb1965 said:

Paul-M said:

I don’t think Lewis was gifted the title by Glock being on the wrong tyres. Lewis was ahead of the toyota’s when the rain started falling and made the decision to switch tyres along with the rest of the top runners. The toyota team saw a chance to get more points by taking a gamble and staying out on dry’s. In the end it didn’t work albeit very close! There’s an onboard video of Glock driving the last lap on YouTube. His car looked practically undriveable. Had Toyota made the same strategy decision as the other cars around them Lewis would still have been WC just without the last corner drama!

Given that Toyota and Ferrari were heading to court at the time people always questioned Glock's sudden lack of pace on that last lap, I just think it was down to the conditions, but some around the sport wonder if the conditions weren't the only 'problem'.

It all starts to make sense now. I'm guessing those are the same people who make those wild claims about Adelaide 94 that you shared with us earlier. Let "them" have a look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhH93grvh84

Do they have any other interesting "theories" that we could take the piss out of?

[sparta6]

SeeFive said:

Felipe was decent enough, and a happy, friendly guy off track but not WDC quality.

Well Massa was certainly WDC quality in 2008.....until the Gift of Glock.

But I agree he wasn't cut of the same cloth as Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Lauda etc.

[oyster]

In his first F1 career he finished 198 races - he won 91 of them. That is astonishing.
It's not just the 7 WDCs he did win, he contested in 4 others and only lost by a small margin, and might well have won in 1999 but for the leg breaks.


OK he was ruthless. What champions aren't?

Hungary 2010 - Rubens into the pit wall. When Verstappen does this, he's lauded for it.

[anonymous-user]

Sam993 said:

It all starts to make sense now. I'm guessing those are the same people who make those wild claims about Adelaide 94 that you shared with us earlier. Let "them" have a look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhH93grvh84

Do they have any other interesting "theories" that we could take the piss out of?

Which bit of me thinking it was just down to the conditions did you miss? I posted the alternative thinking just for a point of discussion, that’s all.

Secondly who is this “we” that is going to be taking the piss? You seem to be the only one posting in this manner.

Thirdly do you talk to people the same way in real life as you do on here? I highly doubt it for obvious reasons.

Why can’t we just discuss differing opinions without you resorting to stupid retorts each time? I get that you think Schumacher deliberately rammed Hill in Adelaide 1994, I (and others despite your protestations to the contrary) don’t agree with you that’s all.

So how about being a bit more adult and a little less cocky in the future?

[Sam993]

cb1965 said:

Sam993 said:

It all starts to make sense now. I'm guessing those are the same people who make those wild claims about Adelaide 94 that you shared with us earlier. Let "them" have a look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhH93grvh84

Do they have any other interesting "theories" that we could take the piss out of?

Which bit of me thinking it was just down to the conditions did you miss? I posted the alternative thinking just for a point of discussion, that’s all.

You'd have to be pretty naive (or an insane conspiracy nut) to claim or consider that there were other factors that caused Glock to slow down, given the proof that is the video of his final lap (link to which I provided above). Basically almost all of your thinking is "alternative thinking" and you're bound to become a PH legend (you already are one to some of us).

[anonymous-user]

Sam993 said:

cb1965 said:

Sam993 said:

It all starts to make sense now. I'm guessing those are the same people who make those wild claims about Adelaide 94 that you shared with us earlier. Let "them" have a look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhH93grvh84

Do they have any other interesting "theories" that we could take the piss out of?

Which bit of me thinking it was just down to the conditions did you miss? I posted the alternative thinking just for a point of discussion, that’s all.

You'd have to be pretty naive (or an insane conspiracy nut) to claim or consider that there were other factors that caused Glock to slow down, given the proof that is the video of his final lap (link to which I provided above). Basically almost all of your thinking is "alternative thinking" and you're bound to become a PH legend (you already are one to some of us).

This is my post that you are basing your above accusations on, please see the bold bit!

cb1965 said:

Given that Toyota and Ferrari were heading to court at the time people always questioned Glock's sudden lack of pace on that last lap, I just think it was down to the conditions, but some around the sport wonder if the conditions weren't the only 'problem'.

[Sam993]

cb1965 said:

Sam993 said:

cb1965 said:

Sam993 said:

It all starts to make sense now. I'm guessing those are the same people who make those wild claims about Adelaide 94 that you shared with us earlier. Let "them" have a look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhH93grvh84

Do they have any other interesting "theories" that we could take the piss out of?

Which bit of me thinking it was just down to the conditions did you miss? I posted the alternative thinking just for a point of discussion, that’s all.

You'd have to be pretty naive (or an insane conspiracy nut) to claim or consider that there were other factors that caused Glock to slow down, given the proof that is the video of his final lap (link to which I provided above). Basically almost all of your thinking is "alternative thinking" and you're bound to become a PH legend (you already are one to some of us).

This is my post that you are basing your above accusations on, please see the bold bit!

cb1965 said:

Given that Toyota and Ferrari were heading to court at the time people always questioned Glock's sudden lack of pace on that last lap, I just think it was down to the conditions, but some around the sport wonder if the conditions weren't the only 'problem'.

Nice deflection, I bet you hope I forgot that I highlighted the bit that I was specifically addressing in my post, don't you. You. Must. Try. Harder.

[Evangelion]

Looking at that video of Glock's final lap, I agree that he'd have been pushed to keep anyone behind him let alone Lewis.

I have to say though, that in my opinion, winning the championship by a single point on the last corner of the last lap of the last race, is much less of an achievement than clinching it with several races to go.

[swisstoni]

A bit silly. Many sports are won or lost on the slimmest of margins.
Everyone knows that fact going in. Sometimes there will be heartbreaking near things.

[anonymous-user]

Sam993 said:

Nice deflection, I bet you hope I forgot that I highlighted the bit that I was specifically addressing in my post, don't you. You. Must. Try. Harder.

You’ve lost me! You started banging on about my alternative thinking having just quoted the part of my post where I said I thought it was solely down to the conditions. You’re genuinely a bit odd frankly.