The Official 2018 Italian Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
Wh00sher said:
Apologies if this has been posted earlier and I missed it, but jeez ! I`m amazed Kimi even made it to the finish line with tyres in this state 
Wowsers. Assume that is quite literally down to the canvas on the centre-left part? Can't have been all that far from letting go can it? 37chevy said:
Think you’re being a little harsh there. Ferrari didn’t exactly have time to stop their drivers racing and install team orders. There’s no way you’d let them swap in the first corner at Monza, too much going on, if Kimi slowed to let Vettel pass then Lewis would have been up the inside, his start was too good. If Vettel hadn’t mucked it up I’d have expected to see them swap within a couple of laps
We saw at Spa that Seb’s car has something very special to deploy during the first half of the first lap. The passing strategy, if there was one, would have been agreed in the briefings before the start. I just don’t think that Kimi played-ball.
Wh00sher said:
Apologies if this has been posted earlier and I missed it, but jeez ! I`m amazed Kimi even made it to the finish line with tyres in this state
I did think he was doing a very good job of making an extremely tricky situation look easy. There were a few times when the rear broke traction under power where you could notice it.Anyway, that's not a properly knackered tyre. This is though:
NFC 85 Vette said:
Perhaps, but the pre-race briefing they'd have had, would have discussed all the likely scenarios and how they'd react to each, including lap 1 changes of position.
If they really thought Hamilton wouldn't have a decent enough start to put them under pressure, that's cocky and foolish. It looked as if everyone in a red car had forgotten their script on the day. It also planted the seed that means Hamilton knows he just has to be close enough to unsettle them, and any plan they had, starts to fall to pieces.
Unfortunately, to turn this around, it needs a robust pecking order in the team, right at a time where Kimi's doing quite well on his own merit (he does blow hot and cold, but this has been his strongest season in a long time).
I think you're asking a lot to try and swap positions in the first few turns. There is too much potential for chaos. The main priority is to get both cars through cleanly and ideally in 1st and 2nd, but that isn't straight forward. Its then very hard to let one car past when it has another car right on its tail and closing. Maybe in hindsight, it would have been better to accept that Lewis was likely to follow Seb through, but their best possible outcome was to keep the Merc behind both Ferraris and then swap the cars when safe to do so (which was what I'm sure they were aiming at).If they really thought Hamilton wouldn't have a decent enough start to put them under pressure, that's cocky and foolish. It looked as if everyone in a red car had forgotten their script on the day. It also planted the seed that means Hamilton knows he just has to be close enough to unsettle them, and any plan they had, starts to fall to pieces.
Unfortunately, to turn this around, it needs a robust pecking order in the team, right at a time where Kimi's doing quite well on his own merit (he does blow hot and cold, but this has been his strongest season in a long time).
I do think they made an error with qualifying. Maybe they didn't believe in the benefit of slipstreaming (lost time in curve grande and parabolica vs speed at the end of the straights). Maybe they expected Seb to be 2 tenths clear of the Mercs and thought he'd tow Kimi into second?
NFC 85 Vette said:
.......
Unfortunately, to turn this around, it needs a robust pecking order in the team, right at a time where Kimi's doing quite well on his own merit (he does blow hot and cold, but this has been his strongest season in a long time).
As people have said earlier on the thread, Kimi is fast at the moment because he's driving for a contract. Ferrari need to get that sorted so he's back driving for the team rather than his future. Unfortunately, to turn this around, it needs a robust pecking order in the team, right at a time where Kimi's doing quite well on his own merit (he does blow hot and cold, but this has been his strongest season in a long time).
You are 100% on the pecking order, Ferrari also need to focus their efforts on getting Seb to the top of the WDC table rather than the ridiculous farce shown in Q3 on Saturday which put Kimi on pole.
rdjohn said:
We saw at Spa that Seb’s car has something very special to deploy during the first half of the first lap. The passing strategy, if there was one, would have been agreed in the briefings before the start.
I just don’t think that Kimi played-ball.
Or, as we have seen before, the team orders were not explicit enough - remember Kimi saying "just tell me what you want me to do"?I just don’t think that Kimi played-ball.
The orders to Bottas were very direct - "do not let Kimi pass you".
The Surveyor said:
You are 100% on the pecking order, Ferrari also need to focus their efforts on getting Seb to the top of the WDC table rather than the ridiculous farce shown in Q3 on Saturday which put Kimi on pole.
ridiculous farce? how so? kimi had no more a tow from Vettel than Vettel had from the Mercedes, vettel didn't get a clean enough lap and suffered for it, kimi had to push to ensure a Ferrari front row because it was so tight.mattyn1 said:
Or, as we have seen before, the team orders were not explicit enough - remember Kimi saying "just tell me what you want me to do"?
The orders to Bottas were very direct - "do not let Kimi pass you".
yes that made me smile. its almost as though Ferrari are still haunted by the team orders saga of the Schumacher days and the Fernando is faster than you order and didn't want the bad press from another order, couple that with Kimi whos a no BS kinda guy, plus he probably wanted the whole world to know he was moving over rather than Vettel getting the better of him on trackThe orders to Bottas were very direct - "do not let Kimi pass you".
Edited by 37chevy on Tuesday 4th September 09:24
Hungrymc said:
NFC 85 Vette said:
Perhaps, but the pre-race briefing they'd have had, would have discussed all the likely scenarios and how they'd react to each, including lap 1 changes of position.
If they really thought Hamilton wouldn't have a decent enough start to put them under pressure, that's cocky and foolish. It looked as if everyone in a red car had forgotten their script on the day. It also planted the seed that means Hamilton knows he just has to be close enough to unsettle them, and any plan they had, starts to fall to pieces.
Unfortunately, to turn this around, it needs a robust pecking order in the team, right at a time where Kimi's doing quite well on his own merit (he does blow hot and cold, but this has been his strongest season in a long time).
I think you're asking a lot to try and swap positions in the first few turns. There is too much potential for chaos. The main priority is to get both cars through cleanly and ideally in 1st and 2nd, but that isn't straight forward. Its then very hard to let one car past when it has another car right on its tail and closing. Maybe in hindsight, it would have been better to accept that Lewis was likely to follow Seb through, but their best possible outcome was to keep the Merc behind both Ferraris and then swap the cars when safe to do so (which was what I'm sure they were aiming at).If they really thought Hamilton wouldn't have a decent enough start to put them under pressure, that's cocky and foolish. It looked as if everyone in a red car had forgotten their script on the day. It also planted the seed that means Hamilton knows he just has to be close enough to unsettle them, and any plan they had, starts to fall to pieces.
Unfortunately, to turn this around, it needs a robust pecking order in the team, right at a time where Kimi's doing quite well on his own merit (he does blow hot and cold, but this has been his strongest season in a long time).
I do think they made an error with qualifying. Maybe they didn't believe in the benefit of slipstreaming (lost time in curve grande and parabolica vs speed at the end of the straights). Maybe they expected Seb to be 2 tenths clear of the Mercs and thought he'd tow Kimi into second?
I would assume that Ferrari had a plan, one agreed with the drivers. KR seems to me the type of person who would stick with a plan. Not for him making it up as he goes along. Whatever, it was a mess of Ferrari's manufacture. The plan didn't work.
Regarding qualifying, Ferrari wanted to get both cars on the front row. SV made a small error on his fastest lap and it not only cost him a tenth or two, but pole as well. Had he not slipped up, he'd have got it without problem. Had KR gone a bit slower he would have been third.
On the day, I had little doubt that the Ferraris had the edge in top speed. The main thing that confused matters I think was slip streaming. LH was able to stay with KR with apparently little effort. It would have saved him fuel as well. He'd move out of the slipstream on occasion, or put in a slower lap, but was able to use the slipstream to catch up again. I noticed that LH was significantly slower around the Parabolica, losing between a tenth and at times 4/10ths. I assumed this was to cool the left hand side of the car. His front left was marked and was told that the temperature of the rear left was critical.
Perhaps that's why the Ferraris used their tyres so quickly. Had KR taken it easy around the Parabolica, LH would have had an easy pass into Retifilio. In other words, he had to keep it on the limit every time whereas LH could pick and choose.
But then, I could be wrong.
Hungrymc said:
NFC 85 Vette said:
Perhaps, but the pre-race briefing they'd have had, would have discussed all the likely scenarios and how they'd react to each, including lap 1 changes of position.
If they really thought Hamilton wouldn't have a decent enough start to put them under pressure, that's cocky and foolish. It looked as if everyone in a red car had forgotten their script on the day. It also planted the seed that means Hamilton knows he just has to be close enough to unsettle them, and any plan they had, starts to fall to pieces.
Unfortunately, to turn this around, it needs a robust pecking order in the team, right at a time where Kimi's doing quite well on his own merit (he does blow hot and cold, but this has been his strongest season in a long time).
I think you're asking a lot to try and swap positions in the first few turns. There is too much potential for chaos. The main priority is to get both cars through cleanly and ideally in 1st and 2nd, but that isn't straight forward. Its then very hard to let one car past when it has another car right on its tail and closing. Maybe in hindsight, it would have been better to accept that Lewis was likely to follow Seb through, but their best possible outcome was to keep the Merc behind both Ferraris and then swap the cars when safe to do so (which was what I'm sure they were aiming at).If they really thought Hamilton wouldn't have a decent enough start to put them under pressure, that's cocky and foolish. It looked as if everyone in a red car had forgotten their script on the day. It also planted the seed that means Hamilton knows he just has to be close enough to unsettle them, and any plan they had, starts to fall to pieces.
Unfortunately, to turn this around, it needs a robust pecking order in the team, right at a time where Kimi's doing quite well on his own merit (he does blow hot and cold, but this has been his strongest season in a long time).
I do think they made an error with qualifying. Maybe they didn't believe in the benefit of slipstreaming (lost time in curve grande and parabolica vs speed at the end of the straights). Maybe they expected Seb to be 2 tenths clear of the Mercs and thought he'd tow Kimi into second?
The victory lap in formation while antagonistic was no less so than Ferrari displaying the Union flag in their garage after winning at Silverstone.
While Mercedes are a German team they are based in Brackley and Brixworth so there are deep British connections that I am sure played a part in the whole weekend.
Anyway let's see if Vettel and Ferrari can get some points back at Singapore.... the pressure is certainly on.
I think there was also a ‘Monza factor’ at play on Sunday.
The Ferrari team were getting a hardon with the thoughts of an amazing afternoon of racing between their two drivers in Italy.
The plan was they would get a great start, pull away from the pack, swap around between 1st and 2nd to give their beloved Tifosi something to get excited about...and then somewhere towards the end, their golden boy would take the lead and bring it home.
Obviously it all went a bit wrong.
The Ferrari team were getting a hardon with the thoughts of an amazing afternoon of racing between their two drivers in Italy.
The plan was they would get a great start, pull away from the pack, swap around between 1st and 2nd to give their beloved Tifosi something to get excited about...and then somewhere towards the end, their golden boy would take the lead and bring it home.
Obviously it all went a bit wrong.
37chevy said:
The Surveyor said:
You are 100% on the pecking order, Ferrari also need to focus their efforts on getting Seb to the top of the WDC table rather than the ridiculous farce shown in Q3 on Saturday which put Kimi on pole.
ridiculous farce? how so? kimi had no more a tow from Vettel than Vettel had from the Mercedes, vettel didn't get a clean enough lap and suffered for it, kimi had to push to ensure a Ferrari front row because it was so tight.Roofless Toothless said:
If that is the case, then so did the two Force Indias.
My reading of it was that Hamilton was slow, for whatever reason, and got swallowed up by everyone behind.
Does that not normally happen at the start of Spa, the leader always seems to get entre the straight and everyone gains through slip streaming. All it takes is a wide line onto the straight or a few mph down and you get swamped. My reading of it was that Hamilton was slow, for whatever reason, and got swallowed up by everyone behind.
Daston said:
Roofless Toothless said:
If that is the case, then so did the two Force Indias.
My reading of it was that Hamilton was slow, for whatever reason, and got swallowed up by everyone behind.
Does that not normally happen at the start of Spa, the leader always seems to get entre the straight and everyone gains through slip streaming. All it takes is a wide line onto the straight or a few mph down and you get swamped. My reading of it was that Hamilton was slow, for whatever reason, and got swallowed up by everyone behind.
Apologies as I haven't read all the posts but my take on the first lap collision is this:
If you look at the heli shots both Vettel and Hamilton were catching Kimi on the approach to the chicane. Vettel had 3 choices: 1. Back off a bit so as not to run into his team mate 2. Keep his foot in but pull to the left to give himself more room (and potentially open up a pass) 3. Run into the back of his team mate.
Clearly 3 isn't on and if he chose 1 Hamilton would have passed him on the left in to the chicane. So his only viable option was 2, which is actually what he chose.
Once Hamilton got alongside though he should have let it go and passed him on the straight instead of trying to block the pass.
As I say, just my take but from the heli shots it's pretty clear. Surprised the commentators didn't pick that up.
If you look at the heli shots both Vettel and Hamilton were catching Kimi on the approach to the chicane. Vettel had 3 choices: 1. Back off a bit so as not to run into his team mate 2. Keep his foot in but pull to the left to give himself more room (and potentially open up a pass) 3. Run into the back of his team mate.
Clearly 3 isn't on and if he chose 1 Hamilton would have passed him on the left in to the chicane. So his only viable option was 2, which is actually what he chose.
Once Hamilton got alongside though he should have let it go and passed him on the straight instead of trying to block the pass.
As I say, just my take but from the heli shots it's pretty clear. Surprised the commentators didn't pick that up.
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