WDCs in not the best car?

[chunder27]

Scheckter in 1980. That Ferrari was a piece of dump

[LP670]

chunder27 said:

Scheckter in 1980. That Ferrari was a piece of dump

Indeed it was, it also didn't win any titles in 1980

[Dr Z]

2012 Vettel.

Messy and hard fought campaign.

I know people like lump the four Red Bull championship years into the 'dominance' category but the 2012 RB was most definitely not a dominant car.

[angrymoby]

Dr Z said:

2012 Vettel.

Messy and hard fought campaign.

I know people like lump the four Red Bull championship years into the 'dominance' category but the 2012 RB was most definitely not a dominant car.

not a chance, the RB8 won 7 races compared to the 4 for the F2012 ...& it also finished 60pts clear of the Ferrari in the WCC

[paua]

LP670 said:

chunder27 said:

Scheckter in 1980. That Ferrari was a piece of dump

Indeed it was, it also didn't win any titles in 1980

Indeed, Williams & Jones might have a comment on this. First of many for FW.

[Mark-C]

paua said:

LP670 said:

chunder27 said:

Scheckter in 1980. That Ferrari was a piece of dump

Indeed it was, it also didn't win any titles in 1980

Indeed, Williams & Jones might have a comment on this. First of many for FW.

Meanwhile Scheckter DNQ'd the Ferrari in Canada in 1980!

In 1979 when Schecker won the championship I'd say the Ferrari and Williams were very equally matched.

[Dr Z]

angrymoby said:

Dr Z said:

2012 Vettel.

Messy and hard fought campaign.

I know people like lump the four Red Bull championship years into the 'dominance' category but the 2012 RB was most definitely not a dominant car.

not a chance, the RB8 won 7 races compared to the 4 for the F2012 ...& it also finished 60pts clear of the Ferrari in the WCC

Of the 7 race wins, 5 were lights to flag and of those Vettel only enjoyed 3 wins like that (2 won from pole position).

The RB8's average qualifying position is 4.9 +/- 4, which is the worst of the 4 years RB won the championships in. The Mercedes 2014-2016 is light years ahead in comparison.

The McLaren was faster on pace that year (9 pole positions vs 7 for RB), and this is the nadir of the chocolate tyre era when qualifying pace is very important. A car starting on average in the 3rd row has very little hope of winning the Championship, and especially one as volatile as 2012, where consistency is rewarded.

With 13 races done and 7 to go that year Fernando was leading the Championship and the points gap to Vettel was 39 points. Vettel won the next four races on the bounce and finished on the podium twice in the remaining three. That was the Championship.

I think in the modern era this is one of the furthest a driver had come from behind to take the title in the time frame he did--I looked at the stats quite a while ago so I'm just going from memory on this point.

[generationx]

Mark-C said:

paua said:

LP670 said:

chunder27 said:

Scheckter in 1980. That Ferrari was a piece of dump

Indeed it was, it also didn't win any titles in 1980

Indeed, Williams & Jones might have a comment on this. First of many for FW.

Meanwhile Scheckter DNQ'd the Ferrari in Canada in 1980!

In 1979 when Schecker won the championship I'd say the Ferrari and Williams were very equally matched.

I think Ferrari were fortunate that the FW07 didn't properly emerge until midway through the season, otherwise the results may have been different. Ferrari only won two races in the second half of the year.

The FW07 was to all intents and purposes a "better Lotus 79", and the Ferrari underbody aero was severely hampered by the wide flat-12.

The Lotus that year (the 80 to start with) wasn't properly sorted, and Ligier didn't understand why their JS11 worked sometimes and not others, again due to the aero. McLaren were nowhere and there wasn't really anyone else apart from occasional flashes by the horrifyingly unreliable Renaults.

Ferrari were at the right place at the right time.

[angrymoby]

Dr Z said:

Of the 7 race wins, 5 were lights to flag and of those Vettel only enjoyed 3 wins like that (2 won from pole position).

The RB8's average qualifying position is 4.9 +/- 4, which is the worst of the 4 years RB won the championships in. The Mercedes 2014-2016 is light years ahead in comparison.

The McLaren was faster on pace that year (9 pole positions vs 7 for RB), and this is the nadir of the chocolate tyre era when qualifying pace is very important. A car starting on average in the 3rd row has very little hope of winning the Championship, and especially one as volatile as 2012, where consistency is rewarded.

With 13 races done and 7 to go that year Fernando was leading the Championship and the points gap to Vettel was 39 points. Vettel won the next four races on the bounce and finished on the podium twice in the remaining three. That was the Championship.

I think in the modern era this is one of the furthest a driver had come from behind to take the title in the time frame he did--I looked at the stats quite a while ago so I'm just going from memory on this point.

faster isn't always 'better'

& anyone claiming the mp4-27 over the season as whole was the better car, is ...well, brave

no one disputes that the Ferrari & Mclaren were on terms with the RB8 for the first half of that season, but it mullered them in the second half

It wasn't Red Bulls most dominant car/year ...but again, that doesn't mean it wasn't dominant either

Edited by angrymoby on Thursday 6th September 12:42

[anonymous-user]

I was not born in 1970 but what about Jochen Rindt?

Was the Lotus Ford the best car that year?

Tragic that Jochen Rindt died before winning the Championship

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 6th September 19:44

[Vocal Minority]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Terrible that Jochen Rindt is the only Champion to have died achieving that success.

This would benefit from a rephrase Jim....

[anonymous-user]

The thing is I don't think anyone has managed to win the WC in a car that was significantly worse than another for the whole season.

The closest I can remember anyone coming was Alonso in 2012 and Schumacher in 1997/1998

[Dr Z]

angrymoby said:

faster isn't always 'better'

& anyone claiming the mp4-27 over the season as whole was the better car, is ...well, brave

no one disputes that the Ferrari & Mclaren were on terms with the RB8 for the first half of that season, but it mullered them in the second half

It wasn't Red Bulls most dominant car/year ...but again, that doesn't mean it wasn't dominant either

Well, we have to first define dominance to determine if the RB8 was dominant or not.

If we look through history, cars that have collected 40% or more wins in a season have tended to win both Championships (and pretty comfortably in most cases). I would put my dominance cut off point there at 40%. Generally, those seasons that have any one car/team not able to win 40% or more races are often the most interesting and competitive.

The MP4/27 won 7 races too, as did the RB8, which is only 35% of the races in that season. If we say the RB8 was dominant, we'd have to say the MP4/23 was also dominant (winning 33% of the races in 2008) and I very much doubt we'd say that.

Some win percentages:

Year	Team	Win %
1950	Alfa Romeo	100
1951	Alfa Romeo	57
1952	Ferrari	100
1953	Ferrari	87.5
1954	Maserati/Mercedes	75
1955	Mercedes	83
1956	Ferrari	71
1957	Maserati	57
1958	Ferrari	20
1959	Cooper	62.5
1960	Cooper	67
1961	Ferrari	62.5
1962	BRM	44
1963	Lotus	70
1964	Ferrari	30
1965	Lotus	60
1966	Brabham	44
1967	Brabham	36
1968	Lotus	42
1969	Matra	55
1970	Lotus	46
1971	Tyrrell	64
1972	Lotus	42
1973	Tyrrell	33
1974	McLaren	27
1975	Ferrari	43
1976	McLaren	37.5
1977	Ferrari	24
1978	Lotus	50
1979	Ferrari	40
1980	Williams	43
1981	Brabham	20
1982	Williams	6
1983	Brabham	27
1984	McLaren	75
1985	McLaren	37.5
1986	McLaren	25
1987	Williams	56.25
1988	McLaren	94
1989	McLaren	62.5
1990	McLaren	37.5
1991	McLaren	50
1992	Williams	62.5
1993	Williams	62.5
1994	Benetton	50
1995	Benetton	65
1996	Williams	75
1997	Williams	47
1998	McLaren	56
1999	McLaren	44
2000	Ferrari	59
2001	Ferrari	53
2002	Ferrari	88
2003	Ferrari	50
2004	Ferrari	83
2005	Renault	42
2006	Renault	44
2007	Ferrari	53
2008	McLaren	33
2009	Brawn	47
2010	Red Bull	47
2011	Red Bull	63
2012	Red Bull	35
2013	Red Bull	68
2014	Mercedes	84
2015	Mercedes	84
2016	Mercedes	90
2017	Mercedes	60

Bolded are years when other cars won more races and the WDC would be a candidate for achieving it in a lesser car. RB8's record is a bit too low for me to consider it a dominant car.

Edited by Dr Z on Thursday 6th September 18:11

[anonymous-user]

Vocal Minority said:

This would benefit from a rephrase Jim....

[TheLimla]

1995 - iirc whilst the Williams was probably the quicker car, it was another tightly packaged newey design that didn't have as bigger fuel tank as the Benetton. This meant they couldn't run the optimum fuel strategies like the Benetton could.

[angrymoby]

Dr Z said:

Well, we have to first define dominance to determine if the RB8 was dominant or not.

If we look through history, cars that have collected 40% or more wins in a season have tended to win both Championships (and pretty comfortably in most cases). I would put my dominance cut off point there at 40%. Generally, those seasons that have any one car/team not able to win 40% or more races are often the most interesting and competitive.

The MP4/27 won 7 races too, as did the RB8, which is only 35% of the races in that season. If we say the RB8 was dominant, we'd have to say the MP4/23 was also dominant (winning 33% of the races in 2008) and I very much doubt we'd say that.

Some win percentages:

Year	Team	Win %
1950	Alfa Romeo	100
1951	Alfa Romeo	57
1952	Ferrari	100
1953	Ferrari	87.5
1954	Maserati/Mercedes	75
1955	Mercedes	83
1956	Ferrari	71
1957	Maserati	57
1958	Ferrari	20
1959	Cooper	62.5
1960	Cooper	67
1961	Ferrari	62.5
1962	BRM	44
1963	Lotus	70
1964	Ferrari	30
1965	Lotus	60
1966	Brabham	44
1967	Brabham	36
1968	Lotus	42
1969	Matra	55
1970	Lotus	46
1971	Tyrrell	64
1972	Lotus	42
1973	Tyrrell	33
1974	McLaren	27
1975	Ferrari	43
1976	McLaren	37.5
1977	Ferrari	24
1978	Lotus	50
1979	Ferrari	40
1980	Williams	43
1981	Brabham	20
1982	Williams	6
1983	Brabham	27
1984	McLaren	75
1985	McLaren	37.5
1986	McLaren	25
1987	Williams	56.25
1988	McLaren	94
1989	McLaren	62.5
1990	McLaren	37.5
1991	McLaren	50
1992	Williams	62.5
1993	Williams	62.5
1994	Benetton	50
1995	Benetton	65
1996	Williams	75
1997	Williams	47
1998	McLaren	56
1999	McLaren	44
2000	Ferrari	59
2001	Ferrari	53
2002	Ferrari	88
2003	Ferrari	50
2004	Ferrari	83
2005	Renault	42
2006	Renault	44
2007	Ferrari	53
2008	McLaren	33
2009	Brawn	47
2010	Red Bull	47
2011	Red Bull	63
2012	Red Bull	35
2013	Red Bull	68
2014	Mercedes	84
2015	Mercedes	84
2016	Mercedes	90
2017	Mercedes	60

Bolded are years when other cars won more races and the WDC would be a candidate for achieving it in a lesser car. RB8's record is a bit too low for me to consider it a dominant car.

Edited by Dr Z on Thursday 6th September 18:11

brilliant & cheers for that Z ...certainly starts to give a truer picture

2012 is interesting as i'd forgotten how many wins McLaren had had ...probably because of the amount of dnf's/ mechanical issues it had (& Hamilton going into full on meltdown mode)

[anonymous-user]

Gaz. said:

What full meltdown did he have in 2012?

He didn't, some on here manufacture a false reality based on their personal feelings about drivers and those feelings are usually garnered from the press rather than via any thinking for themselves!

[angrymoby]

cb1965 said:

He didn't, some on here manufacture a false reality based on their personal feelings about drivers and those feelings are usually garnered from the press rather than via any thinking for themselves!

hands up, it was a mistake with 2011

no idea what you're going on about re: press etc etc tbh

Edited by angrymoby on Thursday 6th September 21:22

[anonymous-user]

angrymoby said:

no idea what you're going on about re: press etc etc tbh

The media control your thinking rather than you actually looking at the facts! Don't worry, you're not alone. HTH

[coppice]

As an old fart , perhaps I may offer some longer perspective than the Red Bull era ?

1970 - Lotus 72 was the best car , once they'd got it working. And it was so good that the last F1 race (not GP) it won was 4 years later .

1966/67 - the Brabham Repco didn't have as much power as many, but it worked .

1972- so evenly matched at the front - Stewart , Ickx , Fittipaldi in Tyrrell, Ferrari and Lotus (72!) .

Lauda won in his Ferrari in 1977 , but Lotus's star was in the ascendant and the 78 was as good as anything.

82- Rosberg's Williams I'd say was the penultimate time the best car didn't win . Not that there was a best car that year - so close. But nothing was better than Rosberg's Williams at 83 Monaco , as long as a bloke called Keke was driving !

86- Prost- the McLaren was no Williams ...