Alonso comeback

[TobyTR]

jsf said:

TobyTR said:

Senna in '84 and '92-'93 showed what he was capable of in some dogs.

I'd love to see what Hamilton could do in lesser machinery, but we'll never know, apart from half a season in 2009. 2010-2013 he had decent cars but he couldn't put anything consistent together.

Hamilton has won a race in every season in F1, thats quite some achievement. His McLaren cars were mostly not the best car.

His McLarens and '13 Merc were not the best car, but still better than the Ferraris.

[TobyTR]

Part two another great read, fascinating and refreshingly objective:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/46226823

So from this, Lewis threw his toys out of the pram at Monaco because he couldn't win. Then at Hungary he ignored pre-agreed team orders before qualifying and again repeatedly during their fuel-burn phase, screwing Alonso. So Alonso retaliated and gets hit with a 5-place grid penalty, which cost him more championship points.

Alonso was no angel that year for threatening Dennis, but he only retaliated once to Hamilton's antics on-track.

Edited by TobyTR on Friday 23 November 04:07

[FeelingLucky]

TobyTR said:

Senna in '84 and '92-'93 showed what he was capable of in some dogs.

I'd love to see what Hamilton could do in lesser machinery, but we'll never know, apart from half a season in 2009. 2010-2013 he had decent cars but he couldn't put anything consistent together.

Senna's '93 ride was the class of the field, with the least powerful engine. By seasons end, they'd developed it to a point where it could beat the Williams on a power circuit on pace alone.

[E34-3.2]

TobyTR said:

Part two another great read, fascinating and refreshingly objective:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/46226823

So from this, Lewis threw his toys out of the pram at Monaco because he couldn't win. Then at Hungary he ignored pre-agreed team orders before qualifying and again repeatedly during their fuel-burn phase, screwing Alonso. So Alonso retaliated and gets hit with a 5-place grid penalty, which cost him more championship points.

Alonso was no angel that year for threatening Dennis, but he only retaliated once to Hamilton's antics on-track.

Edited by TobyTR on Friday 23 November 04:07

One thing that transpire from these articles is that Alonso has always needed to be number 1 driver to beat his teammates. He got equal statue in 2007 and struggle to cope with the pressure.
Hamilton must have noticed it and played a silly game with Alonso which I believe costed him more at the end of the year that it did for Alonso

[TobyTR]

'93 Australian grand prix: "Despite being the fastest qualifier in his Ford V8-powered McLaren, Senna was some 15 km/h slower on the 890m-long Brabham Straight than the Renault V10-powered Williams of Hill"...

Number-one insecurities could be said for most of the great drivers too, certainly Hamilton is in a better space now he has a clear number 2. But it wasn't long ago Button and Rosberg managed to get into Hamilton's head... Hamilton had his most insecure years with Button as teammate. none of the super-ambitious drivers particularly like it.

2014 Ferrari didn't set out with a clear number 1 & 2 with Alonso and Raikkonen, but they didn't have to, as Alonso had wiped the floor with him by half way through the season

[E34-3.2]

TobyTR said:

'93 Australian grand prix: "Despite being the fastest qualifier in his Ford V8-powered McLaren, Senna was some 15 km/h slower on the 890m-long Brabham Straight than the Renault V10-powered Williams of Hill"...

Number-one insecurities could be said for most of the great drivers too, certainly Hamilton is in a better space now he has a clear number 2. But it wasn't long ago Button and Rosberg managed to get into Hamilton's head... Hamilton had his most insecure years with Button as teammate. none of the super-ambitious drivers particularly like it.

2014 Ferrari didn't set out with a clear number 1 & 2 with Alonso and Raikkonen, but they didn't have to, as Alonso had wiped the floor with him by half way through the season

I wouldn't look at top speed to compare F1 cars around a track. If you look at this year's Mercedes, it didn't feature in the top 6 or 7 on top speed at many tracks. In Canada, ithink that Hamilton was 17km/h slower than Perez. I was surprised how many times the Mercs weren't making the top 6.

[HustleRussell]

TobyTR said:

Hamilton is in a better space now he has a clear number 2

Bottas is a number two driver in performance only.

[Muzzer79]

Evangelion said:

TobyTR said:

.... A mark of a great driver isn't what he can do in a race-winning car, it's what he can do in lesser machinery ...

Which is precisely why I don't rate Hamilton as one of the greats. Or Senna.

Really? I'm not Lewis' biggest fan but, despite not having a race-winning car every year, he has indeed won a race every year.

A race-winning car, in my view, is a car where you have won and your team-mate has won or finished in second when you've won.

Using this rationale, Lewis has had a race winning car every year apart from one:

2009, Hamilton won in Hungary and Singapore. Kovalainen's (his teammate) best finish was 4th at the European Grand Prix
Lewis also scored 5 podiums, to Kovalainen's zero.

So, you could argue that he's only been exposed to a non-race winning car in one season. But when he didn't enjoy the luxury of a race-winning car, he outperformed it.

Again, I'm not his biggest fan but with:

5 championships
The most poles
Race wins only second to Schumacher
Only finishing behind his team mate in the championship twice in 12 years (Button 2011 and Rosberg 2016) despite being partnered with a current, former or future WDC for 8 of those 12 years

It's hard to argue against him being a 'great'

Edited by Muzzer79 on Friday 23 November 16:12

[G0ldfysh]

Kccv23highliftcam said:

I think he'd make a great team manager.

Too right Christian Horner does a good job as team manager bhing about the engine being no good, Alonso is a shoe in as his holiday replacement.

[turbomoped]

If he was allowed into GP2 he could say GP2 engine! but they went and called it F2.

[Evangelion]

Muzzer79 said:

[Loads of stuff about Hamilton]

... It's hard to argue against him being a 'great'

I'd argue against any of the current crop of drivers being considered a 'great.'

Being able to race for two or three hours in a car with hard, skinny tyres, no downforce and a spaceframe full of fuel that wants to kill you every time you drive it. That's a great.

[Muzzer79]

Evangelion said:

Muzzer79 said:

[Loads of stuff about Hamilton]

... It's hard to argue against him being a 'great'

I'd argue against any of the current crop of drivers being considered a 'great.'

Being able to race for two or three hours in a car with hard, skinny tyres, no downforce and a spaceframe full of fuel that wants to kill you every time you drive it. That's a great.

Greatness is relative to your era

You can’t travel back in time, you can’t bring the dead back and you can’t make the old young therefore comparisons between then and now are impossible

Fangio was a great of his era
As was Clark
As was Stewart
As was Lauda
As was Senna
As was Schumacher
As is Hamilton

This is not an exhaustive list.

[Vaud]

Muzzer79 said:

Greatness is relative to your era

You can’t travel back in time, you can’t bring the dead back and you can’t make the old young therefore comparisons between then and now are impossible

Fangio was a great of his era
As was Clark
As was Stewart
As was Lauda
As was Senna
As was Schumacher
As is Hamilton

This is not an exhaustive list.

100% agree

[FeelingLucky]

TobyTR said:

'93 Australian grand prix: "Despite being the fastest qualifier in his Ford V8-powered McLaren, Senna was some 15 km/h slower on the 890m-long Brabham Straight than the Renault V10-powered Williams of Hill"...

Did you intentionally omit that as well as qualifying on pole, he won the race?

[Mr Tidy]

Evangelion said:

I'd argue against any of the current crop of drivers being considered a 'great.'

Being able to race for two or three hours in a car with hard, skinny tyres, no downforce and a spaceframe full of fuel that wants to kill you every time you drive it. That's a great.

But they aren't allowed to drive for more than 2 hours now, and can't have hard, skinny tyres, run with no downforce or fill the spaceframe full of fuel anymore!

That doesn't mean we can't still have greats - running within the regulations in force at the time.

IMHO LH is a great - not too many drivers with more than 5 titles (Oh, just the one I think).

[37chevy]

Evangelion said:

I'd argue against any of the current crop of drivers being considered a 'great.'

Being able to race for two or three hours in a car with hard, skinny tyres, no downforce and a spaceframe full of fuel that wants to kill you every time you drive it. That's a great.

It’s a matter of perspective. If you are using danger to judge how great someone is then Prost, senna, scumacher wouldn’t be greats.

How about flip it around. Do you really think fangio would have the mental and physical ability to drive one of today’s highly sophisticated cars with huge cornering g forces. I doubt it very much.

You can only race with the tools that you’ve got, and excel against your peers

[HustleRussell]

Evangelion said:

Being able to race for two or three hours in a car with hard, skinny tyres, no downforce and a spaceframe full of fuel that wants to kill you every time you drive it. That's a great.

You realise that’s over 50 years ago, right?

[Evangelion]

37chevy said:

...Do you really think Fangio would have the mental and physical ability to drive one of today’s highly sophisticated cars with huge cornering g forces?...

He'd wipe the floor with them! As would Clark, Hawthorn, Ascari, Moss, Nuvolari and many others you've probably never heard of.

Mr Tidy said:

But they aren't allowed to drive for more than 2 hours now, and can't have hard, skinny tyres, run with no downforce or fill the spaceframe full of fuel anymore!

... which is precisely what's wrong with it!

[Vaud]

Sports inevitably evolve and get safer and more technologically advanced. We can’t put the genie back in the bottle.

[E34-3.2]

Evangelion said:

... which is precisely what's wrong with it!

So how do you now and what fact do you have. Do you know how old Fangio was when he won his world championships? Now tell me how many drivers could drive a modern F1 and win at the same age than Fangio... pricelsely, none.

Edited by E34-3.2 on Saturday 24th November 15:59