The official Brazilian GP 2018 thread **spoilers**
Discussion
TheLimla said:
Laps building up to the incident https://streamable.com/fkpqj
Max was aware the Force India was pushing, still decided to close the door! Idiot!
Totally agree, I just do not understand this support for Max and what he did, he closed the door on Ocon, Ocon had two wheels over the white line and Max still tried to squeeze him more.Max was aware the Force India was pushing, still decided to close the door! Idiot!
He deserves to have lost the race and has no-one to blame but himself.
And this argument that Ocon should have know his place is just daft, it is a motor race.
Dakkon said:
Totally agree, I just do not understand this support for Max and what he did, he closed the door on Ocon, Ocon had two wheels over the white line and Max still tried to squeeze him more.
He deserves to have lost the race and has no-one to blame but himself.
And this argument that Ocon should have know his place is just daft, it is a motor race.
Did Ocon have any damage?He deserves to have lost the race and has no-one to blame but himself.
And this argument that Ocon should have know his place is just daft, it is a motor race.
How much time did he lose after colliding with Verstappen?
How long would it have been before Verstappen would have caught Ocon back up?
Think these questions are important as Ocon finished 14th.
He would have passed Brendon Hartley and Carlos Sainz Jnr as they had yet to pit and perhaps have caught Pierre Gasly who was on a longer stint on medium tyres.
If everything had gone to plan with the above it was suggested that Ocon could have got 11th in the race if the move had worked.
But that is still out of the points.
sparta6 said:
Ocon ignores EIGHT blue flags !
No penalty.
Beneath his charming French accent lays a greasy hustler
again iirc ignoring blue flags is a discretionary offence i.e it's run past race control & they decide (maybe they realised Ocon was faster & not within 1.2s?)No penalty.
Beneath his charming French accent lays a greasy hustler
& seeing as no one mentioned a blue flag offence at the time or after inc the FIA, Charlie or Hamilton (& he'd definitely be complaining if impeded) ... or even the press, i'm not sure why you are
angrymoby said:
sparta6 said:
Ocon ignores EIGHT blue flags !
No penalty.
Beneath his charming French accent lays a greasy hustler
again iirc ignoring blue flags is a discretionary offence i.e it's run past race control & they decide (maybe they realised Ocon was faster & not within 1.2s?)No penalty.
Beneath his charming French accent lays a greasy hustler
& seeing as no one mentioned a blue flag offence at the time or after inc the FIA, Charlie or Hamilton (& he'd definitely be complaining if impeded) ... or even the press, i'm not sure why you are
I've just seen Whiting's justification for the penalty against Ocon. Very odd wording.
Ocon was, he says, fully entitled to overtake Verstappen. So he agrees with the majority on here. However, there was something wrong with the way he did it. It is a very wooly statement. He said that an unlapping must be done cleanly and that he went for it. Ocon should not have fought for the corner.
He also agrees that RB should have told Verstappen to let Ocon go. But then, Verstappen said he knew Ocon was in a faster car.
I would agree that it would have made more sense for Ocon to challenge into turn 4, so ensuring that Verstappen could not bite back immediately but then it would have made more sense for Verstappen to let Ocon go.
So Whiting agrees that Ocon was not at fault in trying to unlap himself. However, the collision was, in his opinion, down to Ocon for doing so in a manner where Verstappen would not let him past. I might not know everything about F1, but I know BS when I see it.
Derek Smith said:
So Whiting agrees that Ocon was not at fault in trying to unlap himself. However, the collision was, in his opinion, down to Ocon for doing so in a manner where Verstappen would not let him past. I might not know everything about F1, but I know BS when I see it.
I agree. I’m surprised by a lot of the analysis of this. Brundle said immedialty afterwards that Ocon had ‘lunged’. I didn’t see any lunge. He was perhaps a little optimistic, but was faster and Max had a bigger battle on his hands. angrymoby said:
sparta6 said:
Ocon ignores EIGHT blue flags !
No penalty.
Beneath his charming French accent lays a greasy hustler
again iirc ignoring blue flags is a discretionary offence i.e it's run past race control & they decide (maybe they realised Ocon was faster & not within 1.2s?)No penalty.
Beneath his charming French accent lays a greasy hustler
& seeing as no one mentioned a blue flag offence at the time or after inc the FIA, Charlie or Hamilton (& he'd definitely be complaining if impeded) ... or even the press, i'm not sure why you are
There was no Ocon ignoring blue flags in then sense of actually impeding Lewis. Sparta gets it wrong again...
Derek Smith said:
It was rather strange seeing blue flags whilst Ocon was behind Verstappen.
I've just seen Whiting's justification for the penalty against Ocon. Very odd wording.
Ocon was, he says, fully entitled to overtake Verstappen. So he agrees with the majority on here. However, there was something wrong with the way he did it. It is a very wooly statement. He said that an unlapping must be done cleanly and that he went for it. Ocon should not have fought for the corner.
He also agrees that RB should have told Verstappen to let Ocon go. But then, Verstappen said he knew Ocon was in a faster car.
I would agree that it would have made more sense for Ocon to challenge into turn 4, so ensuring that Verstappen could not bite back immediately but then it would have made more sense for Verstappen to let Ocon go.
So Whiting agrees that Ocon was not at fault in trying to unlap himself. However, the collision was, in his opinion, down to Ocon for doing so in a manner where Verstappen would not let him past. I might not know everything about F1, but I know BS when I see it.
At a practical level, Force India pitwall could have walked a few steps to Red Bull and agreed a place for Ocon to pass so that Max would not lose time and not need to "go for the pass".I've just seen Whiting's justification for the penalty against Ocon. Very odd wording.
Ocon was, he says, fully entitled to overtake Verstappen. So he agrees with the majority on here. However, there was something wrong with the way he did it. It is a very wooly statement. He said that an unlapping must be done cleanly and that he went for it. Ocon should not have fought for the corner.
He also agrees that RB should have told Verstappen to let Ocon go. But then, Verstappen said he knew Ocon was in a faster car.
I would agree that it would have made more sense for Ocon to challenge into turn 4, so ensuring that Verstappen could not bite back immediately but then it would have made more sense for Verstappen to let Ocon go.
So Whiting agrees that Ocon was not at fault in trying to unlap himself. However, the collision was, in his opinion, down to Ocon for doing so in a manner where Verstappen would not let him past. I might not know everything about F1, but I know BS when I see it.
HighwayStar said:
I believe Lewis was around 4secs behind Max (and nursing a sick engine) when Ocon emerged between them from the pits. The blue flags were at the presumption he would catch the FI. He didn't. Notice in the various shots we've seen of both cars, at turn 1, going into turn 2 and the actual Max/Ocon mash up, car 44 is nowhere near. Lewis in not in shot at all. If he was right there we know he'd have been moaning about being held up.
There was no Ocon ignoring blue flags in then sense of actually impeding Lewis. Sparta gets it wrong again...
Hamilton was 4 seconds behind when the accident happened.There was no Ocon ignoring blue flags in then sense of actually impeding Lewis. Sparta gets it wrong again...
That is why I find it strange when he stated this after the Brazilian race
“I saw it happen,” said Hamilton. “It wasn’t something that… I wasn’t surprised by it.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
HighwayStar said:
I believe Lewis was around 4secs behind Max (and nursing a sick engine) when Ocon emerged between them from the pits. The blue flags were at the presumption he would catch the FI. He didn't. Notice in the various shots we've seen of both cars, at turn 1, going into turn 2 and the actual Max/Ocon mash up, car 44 is nowhere near. Lewis in not in shot at all. If he was right there we know he'd have been moaning about being held up.
There was no Ocon ignoring blue flags in then sense of actually impeding Lewis. Sparta gets it wrong again...
Hamilton was 4 seconds behind when the accident happened.There was no Ocon ignoring blue flags in then sense of actually impeding Lewis. Sparta gets it wrong again...
That is why I find it strange when he stated this after the Brazilian race
“I saw it happen,” said Hamilton. “It wasn’t something that… I wasn’t surprised by it.
Watch this clip.
Lewis passes as max stops spinning/sliding
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqDQ1MfBqCH/?hl=en
Deesee said:
He saw it he was at the top of the hill when there was contact
Watch this clip.
Lewis passes as max stops spinning/sliding
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqDQ1MfBqCH/?hl=en
Perhaps the battle between Verstappen and Ocon cost a second as Hamilton was clearly closer.Watch this clip.
Lewis passes as max stops spinning/sliding
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqDQ1MfBqCH/?hl=en
Thank you for that
angrymoby said:
Balestre disliked both of them ...in fact i'm pretty sure Balestre disliked all drivers & they probably all disliked him as much
& pole position wasn't moved in '90, Senna wanted it moved ...Balestre refused, probably because Senna didn't complain too much when he started from there in pole position in '89 & '88
Suzuka '90 was just the culmination of 2 years of building resentment between the pair & Senna's belief that Prost took him out in '89 (& tbf looking at the replays & Ron's subsequent reaction, it's hard say Prost didn't)
& I say that as a massive Senna fan, but not a delusional one
Obviously, it's Senna's words against who they spoke too.& pole position wasn't moved in '90, Senna wanted it moved ...Balestre refused, probably because Senna didn't complain too much when he started from there in pole position in '89 & '88
Suzuka '90 was just the culmination of 2 years of building resentment between the pair & Senna's belief that Prost took him out in '89 (& tbf looking at the replays & Ron's subsequent reaction, it's hard say Prost didn't)
& I say that as a massive Senna fan, but not a delusional one
Senna in 1991.
Before we started qualifying (at Suzuka last year) Gerhard (Berger) and I went to the officials and asked them to change the pole position because it was in the wrong place. And the officials said yes. No problem. We worked hard Friday and we sweated out Saturday. I got pole and then what happened? Balestre gave an order that we don't change pole position. We said that had been agreed before the race. They said no, we don't think so.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Deesee said:
He saw it he was at the top of the hill when there was contact
Watch this clip.
Lewis passes as max stops spinning/sliding
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqDQ1MfBqCH/?hl=en
Perhaps the battle between Verstappen and Ocon cost a second as Hamilton was clearly closer.Watch this clip.
Lewis passes as max stops spinning/sliding
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqDQ1MfBqCH/?hl=en
Thank you for that
Racing (time) gaps by lap, and drivers laps
You can see that Lewis backs off when Ocon boxes / comes out his decreasing trend of laps stabilised and increased gap to leader from 2 seconds to 2.7 seconds, lapping high 1.13 low 1.14s.
Ocon is flying at 1.128.
Max whom was comfortably doing low 1.12’s slows to mid 1.13s to defend against a backmarker.
You can see from the contact Max lost about 8 seconds and lead of the race, Esteban lost 10 seconds (contact) + an additional 36 seconds in the stop go + additional traffic, probably cost WCC points.
Deesee said:
Racing (time) gaps by lap, and drivers laps
You can see that Lewis backs off when Ocon boxes / comes out his decreasing trend of laps stabilised and increased gap to leader from 2 seconds to 2.7 seconds, lapping high 1.13 low 1.14s.
Ocon is flying at 1.128.
Max whom was comfortably doing low 1.12’s slows to mid 1.13s to defend against a backmarker.
You can see from the contact Max lost about 8 seconds and lead of the race, Esteban lost 10 seconds (contact) + an additional 36 seconds in the stop go + additional traffic, probably cost WCC points.
Deesee said:
You can see from the contact Max lost about 8 seconds and lead of the race, Esteban lost 10 seconds (contact) + an additional 36 seconds in the stop go + additional traffic, probably cost WCC points.
wheras Kimi got the far lighter 10 secs add-on for turning Lewis around at Silverstone.Usual consistency then!
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Obviously, it's Senna's words against who they spoke too.
Senna in 1991.
Before we started qualifying (at Suzuka last year) Gerhard (Berger) and I went to the officials and asked them to change the pole position because it was in the wrong place. And the officials said yes. No problem. We worked hard Friday and we sweated out Saturday. I got pole and then what happened? Balestre gave an order that we don't change pole position. We said that had been agreed before the race. They said no, we don't think so.
I remember reading that a long time ago, but was never clear about which officials had been asked. Asking the local circuit issues, even the top officials for the circuit, wouldn't have been enough imo, I imagine it would have to go to the FIA (or FISA was it at the time? Anyone else still have sticker saying FISA + FOCA =FIASCO? Foca being the organisation headed by Bernie IIRC Senna in 1991.
Before we started qualifying (at Suzuka last year) Gerhard (Berger) and I went to the officials and asked them to change the pole position because it was in the wrong place. And the officials said yes. No problem. We worked hard Friday and we sweated out Saturday. I got pole and then what happened? Balestre gave an order that we don't change pole position. We said that had been agreed before the race. They said no, we don't think so.
).So I wasn't surprised when the FIA/FISA bods turned up and said "you can put that back again".
Derek Smith said:
I might not know everything about F1, but I know BS when I see it.
Yep, complete rubbish but I actually thought the sanction on Ocon was awful as well, not least given the way Max defended T1 and Ocon's onboard looking like he was 80% off the racetrack when they "collided".heebeegeetee said:
I remember reading that a long time ago, but was never clear about which officials had been asked. Asking the local circuit issues, even the top officials for the circuit, wouldn't have been enough imo, I imagine it would have to go to the FIA (or FISA was it at the time? Anyone else still have sticker saying FISA + FOCA =FIASCO? Foca being the organisation headed by Bernie IIRC ).
So I wasn't surprised when the FIA/FISA bods turned up and said "you can put that back again".
).So I wasn't surprised when the FIA/FISA bods turned up and said "you can put that back again".
I was in a control room for a labour party conference. Blair was going to visit us on the final day to bless us all. It was a time when the poster for the poster boy read - New Labour, New Britain.
I've voted labour in my time but I don't like any party. I produced a slightly altered poster which read - 'New Labour, New Britain, Same Old Cr*p'.
There were two, one behind my position and the other directly in my eye line.
The day before the papal visit - sorry, it was more important that that - the super, who hadn't bothered to visit or contact me previously - wandered in for a dry run. This is a dry run for someone to walk into the room, look, and then clear off. I thought I had it cracked, but obviously not.
He sat in my chair, leaving me no other place to go as everyone else had a job to do. He chatted away and only when he got up to leave did he see the modified poster. He was not best pleased, ranting that they must be thrown away immediately. I tore them up in front of him, tutting my disgust.
Someone, or more, on nights then duplicated the poster dozens of times and every drawer, every cupboard, every wall got its share. I had to confess to the super that I could not justifiably say that I'd got them all. The visit was cancelled. Result.
It was quite enjoyable. I thought there would be a follow-up but the conference being over, no one really cared.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Did Ocon have any damage?
How much time did he lose after colliding with Verstappen?
How long would it have been before Verstappen would have caught Ocon back up?
Think these questions are important as Ocon finished 14th.
He would have passed Brendon Hartley and Carlos Sainz Jnr as they had yet to pit and perhaps have caught Pierre Gasly who was on a longer stint on medium tyres.
If everything had gone to plan with the above it was suggested that Ocon could have got 11th in the race if the move had worked.
But that is still out of the points.
Why did you both posting that when someone comes up with a great reply to it tomorrow? Makes the whole post meaningless, so you didn't need to do it. How much time did he lose after colliding with Verstappen?
How long would it have been before Verstappen would have caught Ocon back up?
Think these questions are important as Ocon finished 14th.
He would have passed Brendon Hartley and Carlos Sainz Jnr as they had yet to pit and perhaps have caught Pierre Gasly who was on a longer stint on medium tyres.
If everything had gone to plan with the above it was suggested that Ocon could have got 11th in the race if the move had worked.
But that is still out of the points.
Or in other words, Ocon has no idea what is going to happen in the future so can't make decisions based on that. Could have been a safety car etc, then he has new tyres behind a queue of cars.
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