Discussion
A15 said:
TheDeuce said:
No baseline I don't think, they said it would take months to figure out and correct whatever was causing the different characteristics of each car. Which basically means they won't be doing it. Honestly, what is the point?
They did however recently have both drivers use the same car at testing, and both ran the same times.. so it looks like both drivers are at least good enough to get the most out of whatever Williams car they're in. That's all we 'know' about kubica's performance relative to Russell.
Looking at the timings I get the impression kubica loses race pace towards the end of a race to a greater extent than Russell, but that too could be down to excessive tyre wear on his car.
There is a lot that makes it look like kubica is the slower driver, but none of it is entirely conclusive - that's the reality. I personally think he probably is and it's unlikely that in all respects his car is consistently worse than Russells. Its also very likely that after such a long break, his age, a weak arm and learning to drive in a different era, he would struggle a little more than Russell.
The good news is it's all irrelevant anyway. He bought that seat, he could bumble round in 3rd with the radio tuned to classic FM and he's not going to lose the seat.
About the Bahrain test in Kubica's car:They did however recently have both drivers use the same car at testing, and both ran the same times.. so it looks like both drivers are at least good enough to get the most out of whatever Williams car they're in. That's all we 'know' about kubica's performance relative to Russell.
Looking at the timings I get the impression kubica loses race pace towards the end of a race to a greater extent than Russell, but that too could be down to excessive tyre wear on his car.
There is a lot that makes it look like kubica is the slower driver, but none of it is entirely conclusive - that's the reality. I personally think he probably is and it's unlikely that in all respects his car is consistently worse than Russells. Its also very likely that after such a long break, his age, a weak arm and learning to drive in a different era, he would struggle a little more than Russell.
The good news is it's all irrelevant anyway. He bought that seat, he could bumble round in 3rd with the radio tuned to classic FM and he's not going to lose the seat.
Russell 1:33.682
Kubica 1:33.290
A fair difference there.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/reports/f1/2019...
As ever, Williams brought up the rear, George Russell three-hundredths faster than Robert Kubica.
Russell described his lap as ‘very poor’ while Kubica’s car had been refitted with his original floor and wing. When they had swapped them over in Friday practice in an effort at tracing the anomaly between the two identically set up cars, Kubica had been faster of the pair – confirming the problem but not the root source.
As ever, Williams brought up the rear, George Russell three-hundredths faster than Robert Kubica.
Russell described his lap as ‘very poor’ while Kubica’s car had been refitted with his original floor and wing. When they had swapped them over in Friday practice in an effort at tracing the anomaly between the two identically set up cars, Kubica had been faster of the pair – confirming the problem but not the root source.
A15 said:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/reports/f1/2019...
As ever, Williams brought up the rear, George Russell three-hundredths faster than Robert Kubica.
Russell described his lap as ‘very poor’ while Kubica’s car had been refitted with his original floor and wing. When they had swapped them over in Friday practice in an effort at tracing the anomaly between the two identically set up cars, Kubica had been faster of the pair – confirming the problem but not the root source.
So they put good parts onto RK’s car, he was faster, then they took them off again. That must be motivating for himAs ever, Williams brought up the rear, George Russell three-hundredths faster than Robert Kubica.
Russell described his lap as ‘very poor’ while Kubica’s car had been refitted with his original floor and wing. When they had swapped them over in Friday practice in an effort at tracing the anomaly between the two identically set up cars, Kubica had been faster of the pair – confirming the problem but not the root source.
The implication is that they still don’t have new parts from the factory. Something is very rotten in the state of Grove.
skwdenyer said:
So they put good parts onto RK’s car, he was faster, then they took them off again. That must be motivating for him
The implication is that they still don’t have new parts from the factory. Something is very rotten in the state of Grove.
At least it's a fact now that his car does behave differently to Russell's. It's a shame that Autosport/Motorsport.com didn't report on this. Well, I'm not surprised. Despite having a more global reach than Motorsport Magazine, they are sorely lacking in 'investigative F1 journalism', if you will. The implication is that they still don’t have new parts from the factory. Something is very rotten in the state of Grove.
Fundoreen said:
Was trying to figure out why the drivers keep slagging off the poor car that's difficult to drive when they should be saying they are working hard to make progress.
As Rosberg pointed out its all massive ego's and narcissism. Its desperation to show its not themselves.
Russell wants a career - if it isn’t the car then it must be him, which is bad for the future.As Rosberg pointed out its all massive ego's and narcissism. Its desperation to show its not themselves.
RK wants to show he’s still got it; similar problems.
I have sympathy with them both; this isn’t a usual backmarker problem, and they’re probably both feeling fairly cheated as I suspect they were assured this year’s car would be a big step after a full-on Lowe development cycle.
Instead it is something of a low point...
TheDeuce said:
That's what I missed then. So on the fresher tyres he managed to be about 4 seconds a lap faster than his team mate... Must have been some pretty special tyres!
Earlier in the race, Vettel on new tyres was over 3 seconds a lap faster than LeClerc. It's not unreasonably to think that on a car lacking downforce (and therefore with a greater proportional reliance on mechanical grip), to have an even greater difference on new tyres - especially at the end of a race where RK's tyres were very old and two grades difference between them.groomi said:
TheDeuce said:
That's what I missed then. So on the fresher tyres he managed to be about 4 seconds a lap faster than his team mate... Must have been some pretty special tyres!
Earlier in the race, Vettel on new tyres was over 3 seconds a lap faster than LeClerc. It's not unreasonably to think that on a car lacking downforce (and therefore with a greater proportional reliance on mechanical grip), to have an even greater difference on new tyres - especially at the end of a race where RK's tyres were very old and two grades difference between them.Petrus1983 said:
My concern for Russell going forwards is that he’s in a car which doesn’t allow him to show any racecraft, or at the moment any ‘wonder’ laps. Also RK is insisting he’s just slower because of the car - so you can’t for the moment definitely say GR is ‘beating’ his team mate even.
Russell doesn't need to worry about that for this season, as he's locked down for next year at the very least. Car-Matt said:
A15 said:
About the Bahrain test in Kubica's car:
Russell 1:33.682
Kubica 1:33.290
A fair difference there.
Doubt they’d waste precious time/resource to run them both on an identical programme given the car is such a heapRussell 1:33.682
Kubica 1:33.290
A fair difference there.
Russell was the quickest of all the Merc drivers in the afternoon.... in a car he’s barely driven before.
Car-Matt said:
Doubt they’d waste precious time/resource to run them both on an identical programme given the car is such a heap
You might be right, who knows?Deesee said:
Russell ran in the morning RK the afternoon, it would be fair to say the track evolves somewhat there at different times of the day.
Russell was the quickest of all the Merc drivers in the afternoon.... in a car he’s barely driven before.
Robert ran after the rainfall on top of that. I'm not surprised Russell was quick in the Merc. Russell was the quickest of all the Merc drivers in the afternoon.... in a car he’s barely driven before.
Jacques Villeneuve, controversial as ever…
Williams ‘no longer a racing team’ – Villeneuve
• Andrew Maitland
• April 15, 2019
Williams’ problems can be traced back to the decision to float on the stock exchange.
That is the view of Jacques Villeneuve, who in 1997 won the once-great team’s last world championship.
“Its leaders are paying for the bad decisions made in recent years,” he told Le Journal de Montreal.
https://grandpx.news/williams-no-longer-a-racing-t...
BUT, these ‘cutting comments’, most probably will mean that Jacques Villeneuve’s picture on the wall at Grove, becomes a dart board…
“It’s a public entity that must report at the end of the year, and all they have to do is make a profit, which they have done. So they are fine,” the French Canadian added.
“But if the company made $16 million in 2018, it is because not enough was spent on the racing team. The president does not want to win in F1, he just wants to make sure he makes the most for the shareholders.
“That’s all that matters now,” Villeneuve alleged.
Williams ‘no longer a racing team’ – Villeneuve
• Andrew Maitland
• April 15, 2019
Williams’ problems can be traced back to the decision to float on the stock exchange.
That is the view of Jacques Villeneuve, who in 1997 won the once-great team’s last world championship.
“Its leaders are paying for the bad decisions made in recent years,” he told Le Journal de Montreal.
https://grandpx.news/williams-no-longer-a-racing-t...
BUT, these ‘cutting comments’, most probably will mean that Jacques Villeneuve’s picture on the wall at Grove, becomes a dart board…
“It’s a public entity that must report at the end of the year, and all they have to do is make a profit, which they have done. So they are fine,” the French Canadian added.
“But if the company made $16 million in 2018, it is because not enough was spent on the racing team. The president does not want to win in F1, he just wants to make sure he makes the most for the shareholders.
“That’s all that matters now,” Villeneuve alleged.
Car-Matt said:
Doubt they’d waste precious time/resource to run them both on an identical programme given the car is such a heap
Probably not identical, no, but given that a large part of their problem is understanding why their two cars are different, having two drivers feeding back in similar conditions will provide much-needed validation of the problems they face, one of whom has now driven both chassis at the same circuit within a couple of days, something they can't do on a normal race weekend. Having them do something drastically different between the two drivers would only serve to further confuse their understanding by introducing yet more variables.thegreenhell said:
Car-Matt said:
Doubt they’d waste precious time/resource to run them both on an identical programme given the car is such a heap
Probably not identical, no, but given that a large part of their problem is understanding why their two cars are different, having two drivers feeding back in similar conditions will provide much-needed validation of the problems they face, one of whom has now driven both chassis at the same circuit within a couple of days, something they can't do on a normal race weekend. Having them do something drastically different between the two drivers would only serve to further confuse their understanding by introducing yet more variables.Car-Matt said:
One ran am one pm, different track evolution and temps etc, those times are deffo NOT comparable by the likes of us, laughable to think they are. Williams may have some correction factors they can apply to compare for the varying paramaters, but frankly if its the same quality of data analysis that produces their aero sims they'd be better off comparing Mr Blobby to Postman Pat
I've done a reasonable amount at the Bahrain circuit over the last few years. The difference in performance levels as the day progresses is huge - any overnight wind deposits sand on the circuit, plus the temperature variations are huge for both ambient and track. So ignoring the potential differences in the drivers' programmes (remember 10kg of fuel is around 0.3s/lap) there are many other factors at that circuit that are even more influential than at most tracks.So just to summarise all the Kubica comments...
It turns out everyone is in agreement that there is no outright evidence he is the slowest driver. I think that says a lot for the general maturity shown in this thread (which lets face it, is about the collapse of Williams) and I completely agree that there is no way of fairly comparing the two drivers.
The saddest thing of all? The cars they have are not just unsuitable for competitive racing in F1, they're so useless that they can't race one another and can't display any talent as they drive - both of them being told to nurse the car through each race...
Thank god Russell got the Mercedes drive and nailed it. His stock is rising. As for kubica.. honestly, who knows. For all we know he's the finest driver on the grid, but he has zero opportunity to demonstrate his talent. The first disabled driver to get the opportunity to re-enter F1, ironically has no sodding opportunity at all.
I know.. the dangers of buying a seat at the most desperate team... But I'm sure he didn't expect the car to be so bad that he had to spend a season not using kerbs in a car that has a known but not understood deficit to his team mate. I personally suspect he's not the quickest driver of the two, but I also see that he's been gifted an awful drive this season. Basically, a pointless car.
It turns out everyone is in agreement that there is no outright evidence he is the slowest driver. I think that says a lot for the general maturity shown in this thread (which lets face it, is about the collapse of Williams) and I completely agree that there is no way of fairly comparing the two drivers.
The saddest thing of all? The cars they have are not just unsuitable for competitive racing in F1, they're so useless that they can't race one another and can't display any talent as they drive - both of them being told to nurse the car through each race...
Thank god Russell got the Mercedes drive and nailed it. His stock is rising. As for kubica.. honestly, who knows. For all we know he's the finest driver on the grid, but he has zero opportunity to demonstrate his talent. The first disabled driver to get the opportunity to re-enter F1, ironically has no sodding opportunity at all.
I know.. the dangers of buying a seat at the most desperate team... But I'm sure he didn't expect the car to be so bad that he had to spend a season not using kerbs in a car that has a known but not understood deficit to his team mate. I personally suspect he's not the quickest driver of the two, but I also see that he's been gifted an awful drive this season. Basically, a pointless car.
TheDeuce said:
So just to summarise all the Kubica comments...
It turns out everyone is in agreement that there is no outright evidence he is the slowest driver. I think that says a lot for the general maturity shown in this thread (which lets face it, is about the collapse of Williams) and I completely agree that there is no way of fairly comparing the two drivers.
The saddest thing of all? The cars they have are not just unsuitable for competitive racing in F1, they're so useless that they can't race one another and can't display any talent as they drive - both of them being told to nurse the car through each race...
Thank god Russell got the Mercedes drive and nailed it. His stock is rising. As for kubica.. honestly, who knows. For all we know he's the finest driver on the grid, but he has zero opportunity to demonstrate his talent. The first disabled driver to get the opportunity to re-enter F1, ironically has no sodding opportunity at all.
I know.. the dangers of buying a seat at the most desperate team... But I'm sure he didn't expect the car to be so bad that he had to spend a season not using kerbs in a car that has a known but not understood deficit to his team mate. I personally suspect he's not the quickest driver of the two, but I also see that he's been gifted an awful drive this season. Basically, a pointless car.
No idea why you think that we all agree about Bobby KIt turns out everyone is in agreement that there is no outright evidence he is the slowest driver. I think that says a lot for the general maturity shown in this thread (which lets face it, is about the collapse of Williams) and I completely agree that there is no way of fairly comparing the two drivers.
The saddest thing of all? The cars they have are not just unsuitable for competitive racing in F1, they're so useless that they can't race one another and can't display any talent as they drive - both of them being told to nurse the car through each race...
Thank god Russell got the Mercedes drive and nailed it. His stock is rising. As for kubica.. honestly, who knows. For all we know he's the finest driver on the grid, but he has zero opportunity to demonstrate his talent. The first disabled driver to get the opportunity to re-enter F1, ironically has no sodding opportunity at all.
I know.. the dangers of buying a seat at the most desperate team... But I'm sure he didn't expect the car to be so bad that he had to spend a season not using kerbs in a car that has a known but not understood deficit to his team mate. I personally suspect he's not the quickest driver of the two, but I also see that he's been gifted an awful drive this season. Basically, a pointless car.
Kubica was overlooked by both Renault and Williams after testing specifically for the race seat and has only secured a seat by bringing enhanced funding this year to the poorest team. That tells you a lot.
I definitely don’t think he’s up to it.
Car-Matt said:
No idea why you think that we all agree about Bobby K
Kubica was overlooked by both Renault and Williams after testing specifically for the race seat and has only secured a seat by bringing enhanced funding this year to the poorest team. That tells you a lot.
I definitely don’t think he’s up to it.
I understand that. But now he does have a seat and the burning question is... Is he slower than his new generation team mate.Kubica was overlooked by both Renault and Williams after testing specifically for the race seat and has only secured a seat by bringing enhanced funding this year to the poorest team. That tells you a lot.
I definitely don’t think he’s up to it.
And the fact is, we don't know. In the same car they were close enough to make outright conclusions difficult.
I actually agree with you in as much as I don't think he's up to it now. But I stand by my previous comments; if he is still great he really has had no real opportunity to show it.
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