Williams F1

[TheDeuce]

Fundoreen said:

New regs if as shown increase ground effect sound like something that will help Williams rather than hinder them further. Couple that with more equal revenue share and lower costs and they should be in better shape than at the moment.
Im sure they would have budgeted for the next 2 years so I doubt the wishes and dreams expressed
here to aid some russian billionare buyout will be met. And a good thing that will be.

Why do you think ground effect aero is more suited to Williams than other teams?

I don't think their budget plans for this year worked out as intended, let alone the next 2.

[b0rk]

Fundoreen said:

New regs if as shown increase ground effect sound like something that will help Williams rather than hinder them further. Couple that with more equal revenue share and lower costs and they should be in better shape than at the moment.
Im sure they would have budgeted for the next 2 years so I doubt the wishes and dreams expressed
here to aid some russian billionare buyout will be met. And a good thing that will be.

The budget cap only helps in limiting on going spending for a team the mechanics of how to prevent the big teams from dumping R&D budget in research around the key themes prior to cap coming into effect really isn’t clear and that is something that will be exploited.

Equally there are already teams performing better than Williams but operating on a lower budget by buying in parts that have a nominal performance benefit. In a cost capped world the big teams will figure out what develop and what to buy so that budget can be maximised, Williams haven’t done this thus far so why will cost caps see them have a come to Jesus moment over develop vs buy.

[TheDeuce]

b0rk said:

The budget cap only helps in limiting on going spending for a team the mechanics of how to prevent the big teams from dumping R&D budget in research around the key themes prior to cap coming into effect really isn’t clear and that is something that will be exploited.

Equally there are already teams performing better than Williams but operating on a lower budget by buying in parts that have a nominal performance benefit. In a cost capped world the big teams will figure out what develop and what to buy so that budget can be maximised, Williams haven’t done this thus far so why will cost caps see them have a come to Jesus moment over develop vs buy.

Yes.

Not only are Williams failing to equal other teams pound for pound performance, they're also unable to reach the budget 'cap' that will likely be set. So I can't see how any of this is good news for Williams - it's more just slightly irritating news for the front runners.

They're an inefficient team. Set the cap wherever and in their current state they'll underperform. They're just too big as a team costwise, and their recent performance won't attract the sponsorship such a large team requires. Hence.. the money goes on the team, so the cars they field suffer.

[Fundoreen]

The teams without the best engineers and huge budgets struggle with downforce and having a slippery car. Thats why red bull do so well as they have both. Only so many brilliant aero guys.
Ground effect cars will allow the required amount of downforce easily without a drag penalty. Even Williams will be able to have enough of everything.
Plus they have the top engine and some good engineers to bolt it all together.
Crooked oligarch should raise his bid to compensate say 300-400 million quid.
Only doing it for some dishonest purpose anyway.

[TheDeuce]

Fundoreen said:

The teams without the best engineers and huge budgets struggle with downforce and having a slippery car. Thats why red bull do so well as they have both. Only so many brilliant aero guys.
Ground effect cars will allow the required amount of downforce easily without a drag penalty. Even Williams will be able to have enough of everything.
Plus they have the top engine and some good engineers to bolt it all together.
Crooked oligarch should raise his bid to compensate say 300-400 million quid.
Only doing it for some dishonest purpose anyway.

You're applying downforce reasoning to ground effect cars. Yes, some things are simplified when grip comes from ground effect.. But also ground effect is an equal challenge to get right. It's also so potent if you do get it right, that the tiniest margins in design efficiency can equal huge implications in terms of pace. This change isn't about making aero easier, it's about making it easier to overtake - that's all.

You're probably right about needing to raise the bid to buy the team - to really sustain the team and allow room for growth, will require a fantastic investment. And I think they will get that level of investment, providing the family lose control as part of the deal.

There is no deal to be had unless Frank sells enough of his stake to relinquish control. No one is going to shove half a billion in to a team without having control. The headline sale will be for less than that, but the true long term cost to turn the team competitive will be huge.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

I mentioned it earlier, but at an evening with Rob Smedley a few weeks ago he said (& I’ve no reason to doubt him) Williams have only £5M to spend on their car at present once everything else is accounted for.

Just let that sink in, £5M.

[TheDeuce]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I mentioned it earlier, but at an evening with Rob Smedley a few weeks ago he said (& I’ve no reason to doubt him) Williams have only £5M to spend on their car at present once everything else is accounted for.

Just let that sink in, £5M.

Did he say what that covered? On an R&D level alone that couldn't cover the wage roll of those working on the car in a season - also buying the Merc engine.

It would just about make sense if the 5m was for the material cost - in which case it would be enough. The materials are expensive for sure, but 5m buys enough raw materials to build two cars and spares.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

TheDeuce said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I mentioned it earlier, but at an evening with Rob Smedley a few weeks ago he said (& I’ve no reason to doubt him) Williams have only £5M to spend on their car at present once everything else is accounted for.

Just let that sink in, £5M.

Did he say what that covered? On an R&D level alone that couldn't cover the wage roll of those working on the car in a season - also buying the Merc engine.

It would just about make sense if the 5m was for the material cost - in which case it would be enough. The materials are expensive for sure, but 5m buys enough raw materials to build two cars and spares.

That was their net figure, in his words “by the time you’ve got out of bed in a morning, that’s what’s left. So less staff wages, infrastructure, rent, rates, tax liabilities, logistics, turning up at every GP with team in branded team wear, that’s what we could spend on the car and making it go faster.”

[TheDeuce]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

TheDeuce said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I mentioned it earlier, but at an evening with Rob Smedley a few weeks ago he said (& I’ve no reason to doubt him) Williams have only £5M to spend on their car at present once everything else is accounted for.

Just let that sink in, £5M.

Did he say what that covered? On an R&D level alone that couldn't cover the wage roll of those working on the car in a season - also buying the Merc engine.

It would just about make sense if the 5m was for the material cost - in which case it would be enough. The materials are expensive for sure, but 5m buys enough raw materials to build two cars and spares.

That was their net figure, in his words “by the time you’ve got out of bed in a morning, that’s what’s left. So less staff wages, infrastructure, rent, rates, tax liabilities, logistics, turning up at every GP with team in branded team wear, that’s what we could spend on the car and making it go faster.”

So, that's zero in season development then.. and there has been zero in season development last couple of seasons, so yes - he was probably being pretty accurate.

Actually... When was the last time Williams did show improvement/development throughout the season?

[rdjohn]

TheDeuce said:

So, that's zero in season development then.. and there has been zero in season development last couple of seasons, so yes - he was probably being pretty accurate.

Actually... When was the last time Williams did show improvement/development throughout the season?

And a load of un-motivated staff looking to go and work somewhere exciting. Is all so very sad.

[rdjohn]

TheDeuce said:

So, that's zero in season development then.. and there has been zero in season development last couple of seasons, so yes - he was probably being pretty accurate.

Actually... When was the last time Williams did show improvement/development throughout the season?

And a load of un-motivated staff looking to go and work somewhere exciting. Is all so very sad.

[skwdenyer]

rdjohn said:

TheDeuce said:

So, that's zero in season development then.. and there has been zero in season development last couple of seasons, so yes - he was probably being pretty accurate.

Actually... When was the last time Williams did show improvement/development throughout the season?

And a load of un-motivated staff looking to go and work somewhere exciting. Is all so very sad.

So what are the design staff doing if not developing in season?

[Tyre Smoke]

Doodling on their drawing boards.

[thegreenhell]

They appear to be overstaffed for the budget they have. Isn't it something like 700 people, according to the latest accounts? That's almost as many as Mercedes and RBR, but with a quarter of their budgets. It's no wonder they have no many left after wages.

[DanielSan]

skwdenyer said:

So what are the design staff doing if not developing in season?

Designing new stuff and then going no further because there's no cash to even make a model for the wind tunnel at a guess

[Petrus1983]

They need a complete overhaul but don’t seem brave enough to pull the plaster off. If they employ 700 they can easily cut that to 500 with no downside - if they don’t have the cash for materials to make new tubs etc why employ people to make them, and that philosophy will go throughout the different organisational levels. I doubt it would even need forced redundancy if you asked the staff if they honestly wanted to stay.

[C Lee Farquar]

I don't presume to know better than the current management based on a few snippets in the press.

Yes the car is poor, but Frank still has his Team unlike Ron Dennis, VJ, Tony Fernandes, Eddie Jordan etc. They have assets, make a profit and are well poised should the manufacturers scale back their involvement.

[DanielSan]

In what way are they well poised, they a second and half behind the teams who are midfield and buying in engines like they are at the moment, with less sponsorship

[Tyre Smoke]

C Lee Farquar said:

I don't presume to know better than the current management based on a few snippets in the press.

Yes the car is poor, but Frank still has his Team unlike Ron Dennis, VJ, Tony Fernandes, Eddie Jordan etc. They have assets, make a profit and are well poised should the manufacturers scale back their involvement.

Ron was ousted by his board, VJ, err let's say nothing. Eddie Jordan sold up, Frank still thinks he's a motorsport behemoth. In reality he's Nokia 3310 in a world of smartphones. With his head in the sand.
Ditch half the workforce, and sell up. It's the only way the team will survive. But I suspect the Williams arrogance won't let them.

[ben5575]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

That was their net figure, in his words “by the time you’ve got out of bed in a morning, that’s what’s left. So less staff wages, infrastructure, rent, rates, tax liabilities, logistics, turning up at every GP with team in branded team wear, that’s what we could spend on the car and making it go faster.”

I was thinking about the Smedley talk when reading Tyre Smoke's point below.

Tyre Smoke said:

Frank still thinks he's a motorsport behemoth. In reality he's Nokia 3310 in a world of smartphones. With his head in the sand.
Ditch half the workforce, and sell up. It's the only way the team will survive. But I suspect the Williams arrogance won't let them.

Unless I picked it up wrong, I got the distinct impression from the talk that Frank had lost his mojo. I'm sure there were diplomatic words (and I don't think I'm telling tales) along the lines of 'Frank's getting on now and it's hard to be as motivated/focused [on F1].' It was said in the context of Rob talking about his admiration for Frank overcoming what he has physically for such a length of time and now that he's getting older, his personal fight is (quite understandably) taking up more of his focus.

So it might not be so much Williams' arrogance, but more about initiating change/succession management (with the appointment of Claire) but with the 'spectre' of Frank ever present, so no clean break. If you're having to permanently look over your shoulder as it were, it's hard to innovate and drive the team in a new direction as you're always second guessing yourself.

Or it could just be the £5m they have to spend on the car!