Discussion
TheDeuce said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
TheDeuce said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I mentioned it earlier, but at an evening with Rob Smedley a few weeks ago he said (& I’ve no reason to doubt him) Williams have only £5M to spend on their car at present once everything else is accounted for.
Just let that sink in, £5M.
Did he say what that covered? On an R&D level alone that couldn't cover the wage roll of those working on the car in a season - also buying the Merc engine.Just let that sink in, £5M.
It would just about make sense if the 5m was for the material cost - in which case it would be enough. The materials are expensive for sure, but 5m buys enough raw materials to build two cars and spares.
Actually... When was the last time Williams did show improvement/development throughout the season?
For all we know, they could earmark £4M for car production and £1M for in season dev.
They’re bound to have expected contingency for rebuilds throughout the year, say budget for x chassis replacements, x front structures, x front wings etc
As you progress through the season with none of that budget spent you’ll amass more credit to divert in other streams (& the opposite true of course).
I think it’s naive to think they’ve got £5M to spend on two cars and they’ll spend the whole amount with no budget left for anything else.
Heck, they might only spend £1M on the cars and the rest is for developments.
Whatever they’ve spent however, it’s pretty certain where it gets you (clue, one and a half seconds down the back).
thegreenhell said:
They appear to be overstaffed for the budget they have. Isn't it something like 700 people, according to the latest accounts? That's almost as many as Mercedes and RBR, but with a quarter of their budgets. It's no wonder they have no many left after wages.
That's the point I keep coming back to. Just why do they need so many people? Especially as they're clearly not working on the car between races to a significant degree. I'm sure tweaks get made, but you don't need several hundred people to achieve a tweak. It's not as if they're trying new wings each race, or are working towards a new aero package. It's a near certainty that the car will end this season more or less as it started it.700 people..? It's very hard to imagine what they could possibly be doing with their time.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I’m no wiser than you (presumably) but I think that’s an assumption too far.
For all we know, they could earmark £4M for car production and £1M for in season dev.
They’re bound to have expected contingency for rebuilds throughout the year, say budget for x chassis replacements, x front structures, x front wings etc
As you progress through the season with none of that budget spent you’ll amass more credit to divert in other streams (& the opposite true of course).
I think it’s naive to think they’ve got £5M to spend on two cars and they’ll spend the whole amount with no budget left for anything else.
Heck, they might only spend £1M on the cars and the rest is for developments.
Whatever they’ve spent however, it’s pretty certain where it gets you (clue, one and a half seconds down the back).
I don't think I was being naive or presumptuous, because my point wasn't that they have literally zero money for in season development, but rather that the entire budget for the car, if true, wouldn't 'even' be comfortable for in season development. Let alone 2 cars, and ideally, a third in the form of spares and extra spares of parts likely to be needed.For all we know, they could earmark £4M for car production and £1M for in season dev.
They’re bound to have expected contingency for rebuilds throughout the year, say budget for x chassis replacements, x front structures, x front wings etc
As you progress through the season with none of that budget spent you’ll amass more credit to divert in other streams (& the opposite true of course).
I think it’s naive to think they’ve got £5M to spend on two cars and they’ll spend the whole amount with no budget left for anything else.
Heck, they might only spend £1M on the cars and the rest is for developments.
Whatever they’ve spent however, it’s pretty certain where it gets you (clue, one and a half seconds down the back).
I'm the end, we can debate on the accuracy of each others comments endlessly, and I have the time if you do
but it's clear that the overriding point, which anyone can understand, is that the team is huge, the budget is small, and the car - as a result - useless.None of us know exactly how they use their budget, we don't need to know. It's enough to know that the budget clearly is not enough for the operation they have to maintain.
I doubt Williams have zero in season development going on, everyone is developing and Williams are just developing at a slower relative rate than others.
Personally I think there is now an us/them culture pervading at Williams, most F1 teams rely massively on good will from staff to go the extra mile. The mentality at Williams seems to have become a more militant one with rumours of work to rule etc. This seems to have crept in over 20 years so will not vanish overnight.
Bringing Patrick Head back in will not fix things either. Williams needs fresh thinking, what worked for Frank/Patrick no longer works (and I respect both massively) you cannot order clever innovative people about and expect them to respond well. You need to enable them to do clever things and let them see they are an important cog in the machine. They need the thrill of seeing the results improve on track and thinking 'I did that'.
Sadly it seems Williams is now a business first, race team second. Concerned about shareholders meetings more than race meetings, staff morale is on the floor and budgets are low. They need to have a wipe the slate clean meeting where grievances can be aired and to remind themselves why they are there, get the staff back inside and begin chipping away at that gap to midfield. Make tangible forward progress to foster a culture of hope rather than fear.
2020 will be the last roll of the dice for Williams, another dog of a car and they are done. Staff will leave taking knowledge with them and things will get worse, the team will then be sold and for me at least that would be a sad way to see it end. If you have to go out, go out fighting.
Personally I think there is now an us/them culture pervading at Williams, most F1 teams rely massively on good will from staff to go the extra mile. The mentality at Williams seems to have become a more militant one with rumours of work to rule etc. This seems to have crept in over 20 years so will not vanish overnight.
Bringing Patrick Head back in will not fix things either. Williams needs fresh thinking, what worked for Frank/Patrick no longer works (and I respect both massively) you cannot order clever innovative people about and expect them to respond well. You need to enable them to do clever things and let them see they are an important cog in the machine. They need the thrill of seeing the results improve on track and thinking 'I did that'.
Sadly it seems Williams is now a business first, race team second. Concerned about shareholders meetings more than race meetings, staff morale is on the floor and budgets are low. They need to have a wipe the slate clean meeting where grievances can be aired and to remind themselves why they are there, get the staff back inside and begin chipping away at that gap to midfield. Make tangible forward progress to foster a culture of hope rather than fear.
2020 will be the last roll of the dice for Williams, another dog of a car and they are done. Staff will leave taking knowledge with them and things will get worse, the team will then be sold and for me at least that would be a sad way to see it end. If you have to go out, go out fighting.
Tyre Smoke said:
Williams will go the way of Tyrrell, Brabham, March, Wolf, Lotus...
Either disappear or be bought by a team that can rebuild and streamline the company. Surely a F2 outfit would make a decent step up? There can't be that much difference in speed between Williams and F2 right now.
Williams are probably slower Either disappear or be bought by a team that can rebuild and streamline the company. Surely a F2 outfit would make a decent step up? There can't be that much difference in speed between Williams and F2 right now.
exelero said:
Tyre Smoke said:
Williams will go the way of Tyrrell, Brabham, March, Wolf, Lotus...
Either disappear or be bought by a team that can rebuild and streamline the company. Surely a F2 outfit would make a decent step up? There can't be that much difference in speed between Williams and F2 right now.
Williams are probably slower Either disappear or be bought by a team that can rebuild and streamline the company. Surely a F2 outfit would make a decent step up? There can't be that much difference in speed between Williams and F2 right now.
Tyre Smoke said:
Williams will go the way of Tyrrell, Brabham, March, Wolf, Lotus...
Either disappear or be bought by a team that can rebuild and streamline the company. Surely a F2 outfit would make a decent step up? There can't be that much difference in speed between Williams and F2 right now.
F2 is a spec series so to "step up" a team would need to hire design, engineering and production departments, not needing £100m+ to go racing is the major draw of F2. An outfit like Carlin can compete in 10? series including F2 yet only needs circa £12m p/a and less than 100 staff. Either disappear or be bought by a team that can rebuild and streamline the company. Surely a F2 outfit would make a decent step up? There can't be that much difference in speed between Williams and F2 right now.
Actually the budget difference needed to be effective in F2 vs F1 highlights the issue faced by Williams, far too big for lesser series yet too small for F1. As you say the future for them to disappear or get bought.
F1 is supposed to be a meritocracy and nobody can claim Williams deserve to be there because of past glories alone. Their car is s&#@ , the workforce, management and the tea lady are demoralised and the looming presence of Frank Williams giving orders via Claire can't really help anybody.
The fact they have made two totally different cars from the same instructions show how poor their quality control actually is.
The fact they have made two totally different cars from the same instructions show how poor their quality control actually is.
b0rk said:
F2 is a spec series so to "step up" a team would need to hire design, engineering and production departments, not needing £100m+ to go racing is the major draw of F2. An outfit like Carlin can compete in 10? series including F2 yet only needs circa £12m p/a and less than 100 staff.
Actually the budget difference needed to be effective in F2 vs F1 highlights the issue faced by Williams, far too big for lesser series yet too small for F1. As you say the future for them to disappear or get bought.
I would say they're far too big for F1, given their budget level. A recent Russell interview stated the team now has 750 people! That's far, far, far too big for any team without at least a RB size budget. That many people... It's the sort of staffing you would expect if 200 of them were working on their own engine and they had autoclaves running 24 hours a day, R&D 24 hours a day and so on... Are we to believe that they need an engineering team of several hundred when they have for months had a shortage of spare parts for a car that apparently hasn't been evolved at all since pre-season testing?Actually the budget difference needed to be effective in F2 vs F1 highlights the issue faced by Williams, far too big for lesser series yet too small for F1. As you say the future for them to disappear or get bought.
I fail to see how they can possibly be generating enough work for so many people - it's more likely that different teams of people are effectively coming up with 'work' for other reams to do - which is exactly what tends to happen in any firm when the senior management are in place too long and are muddled.
We might not know enough to understand why they think they need so many people. But anyone can see that the output in terms of the car and their loss making engineering division, does not justify 750 salaries - nor a building large enough accommodate them all.
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
They appear to be overstaffed for the budget they have. Isn't it something like 700 people, according to the latest accounts? That's almost as many as Mercedes and RBR, but with a quarter of their budgets. It's no wonder they have no many left after wages.
That's the point I keep coming back to. Just why do they need so many people? Especially as they're clearly not working on the car between races to a significant degree. I'm sure tweaks get made, but you don't need several hundred people to achieve a tweak. It's not as if they're trying new wings each race, or are working towards a new aero package. It's a near certainty that the car will end this season more or less as it started it.700 people..? It's very hard to imagine what they could possibly be doing with their time.
I remember an interview with Adrian Reynard when he said that the hardest part of running a business isn't expanding it as it becomes successful, but downsizing it when the income slows down. It seems that there's a lack of willingness to "kick the puppy" when it's really the only option.
Didn't Williams have two wind tunnels at one point? From the problems with last year's car and now this one, which also seems to have aero-related issues, either their tunnel/s aren't calibrated properly, or they're not working at all. Running a wind tunnel is exorbitantly expensive, even when it's working properly, but decommissioning one and using somebody else's, such as the Toyota tunnel in Koln, which everybody else seems to use, is more expensive still.
Dermot O'Logical said:
Didn't Williams have two wind tunnels at one point? From the problems with last year's car and now this one, which also seems to have aero-related issues, either their tunnel/s aren't calibrated properly, or they're not working at all. Running a wind tunnel is exorbitantly expensive, even when it's working properly, but decommissioning one and using somebody else's, such as the Toyota tunnel in Koln, which everybody else seems to use, is more expensive still.
I think someone made the comment earlier (either in this thread or elsewhere) that several teams are using Toyota's tunnel because it has the width to manage the new outwash round the front wheels that this year's aero produces rather than the air being steered inside the wheels last year...TheDeuce said:
I would say they're far too big for F1, given their budget level. A recent Russell interview stated the team now has 750 people! That's far, far, far too big for any team without at least a RB size budget. That many people... It's the sort of staffing you would expect if 200 of them were working on their own engine and they had autoclaves running 24 hours a day, R&D 24 hours a day and so on... Are we to believe that they need an engineering team of several hundred when they have for months had a shortage of spare parts for a car that apparently hasn't been evolved at all since pre-season testing?
I fail to see how they can possibly be generating enough work for so many people - it's more likely that different teams of people are effectively coming up with 'work' for other reams to do - which is exactly what tends to happen in any firm when the senior management are in place too long and are muddled.
We might not know enough to understand why they think they need so many people. But anyone can see that the output in terms of the car and their loss making engineering division, does not justify 750 salaries - nor a building large enough accommodate them all.
I suppose a problem could be that the cost of 200 redundancies from people who have been around way too long could be too expensive. I fail to see how they can possibly be generating enough work for so many people - it's more likely that different teams of people are effectively coming up with 'work' for other reams to do - which is exactly what tends to happen in any firm when the senior management are in place too long and are muddled.
We might not know enough to understand why they think they need so many people. But anyone can see that the output in terms of the car and their loss making engineering division, does not justify 750 salaries - nor a building large enough accommodate them all.
It’s hardly the sort of thing you would ask shareholders to fund.
Just getting rid of Paddy could have a big sting in the tail.
rdjohn said:
TheDeuce said:
I would say they're far too big for F1, given their budget level. A recent Russell interview stated the team now has 750 people! That's far, far, far too big for any team without at least a RB size budget. That many people... It's the sort of staffing you would expect if 200 of them were working on their own engine and they had autoclaves running 24 hours a day, R&D 24 hours a day and so on... Are we to believe that they need an engineering team of several hundred when they have for months had a shortage of spare parts for a car that apparently hasn't been evolved at all since pre-season testing?
I fail to see how they can possibly be generating enough work for so many people - it's more likely that different teams of people are effectively coming up with 'work' for other reams to do - which is exactly what tends to happen in any firm when the senior management are in place too long and are muddled.
We might not know enough to understand why they think they need so many people. But anyone can see that the output in terms of the car and their loss making engineering division, does not justify 750 salaries - nor a building large enough accommodate them all.
I suppose a problem could be that the cost of 200 redundancies from people who have been around way too long could be too expensive. I fail to see how they can possibly be generating enough work for so many people - it's more likely that different teams of people are effectively coming up with 'work' for other reams to do - which is exactly what tends to happen in any firm when the senior management are in place too long and are muddled.
We might not know enough to understand why they think they need so many people. But anyone can see that the output in terms of the car and their loss making engineering division, does not justify 750 salaries - nor a building large enough accommodate them all.
It’s hardly the sort of thing you would ask shareholders to fund.
Just getting rid of Paddy could have a big sting in the tail.
It would be wrong of me to say what the 'right way' is for them, as I can't see all the facts. But from the outside, it appears they have been struggling to compete at the level they aim for, for a very long time, and nothing much about their infrastructure or size of operation has been refreshed at all.
It all smacks of 'it used to that work that way, so goddammit, we'll persevere until it works that way again'! Not just the size of the team, the whole thing has that feel. 'We will never be a B team'... Ok, sure Claire. Saying what you will never do is hardly a business plan though is it? It's a business, you have to evolve and re-shape it for the present reality, not the golden past.
From an outside perspective, it's all a bit too family. The father has always been a bit too single minded, in the Ron mould, and the daughter is not CEO material. I suspect she's very bright, but not able to lead people and get the best from them. Maybe she should have been driving the commercial deals alongside a non-family CEO?
Bringing Patrick Head in is all of the wrong things.
They have access to the best customer engine package and tons of goodwill. To be so far off is nuts. The company is top-down structurally wrong and personnel wrong.
Best bet would be flog it to VAG in 2021 and CW stay on board as some sort of commercial person, with a top egg as CEO.
Bringing Patrick Head in is all of the wrong things.
They have access to the best customer engine package and tons of goodwill. To be so far off is nuts. The company is top-down structurally wrong and personnel wrong.
Best bet would be flog it to VAG in 2021 and CW stay on board as some sort of commercial person, with a top egg as CEO.
janesmith1950 said:
From an outside perspective, it's all a bit too family. The father has always been a bit too single minded, in the Ron mould, and the daughter is not CEO material. I suspect she's very bright, but not able to lead people and get the best from them. Maybe she should have been driving the commercial deals alongside a non-family CEO?
Bringing Patrick Head in is all of the wrong things.
They have access to the best customer engine package and tons of goodwill. To be so far off is nuts. The company is top-down structurally wrong and personnel wrong.
Best bet would be flog it to VAG in 2021 and CW stay on board as some sort of commercial person, with a top egg as CEO.
I tend to agree that an egg would make a better CEO or Deputy TP. As long as it’s not an Ostrich egg; there’s enough head in the sand as it is.......and I don’t mean Patrick.Bringing Patrick Head in is all of the wrong things.
They have access to the best customer engine package and tons of goodwill. To be so far off is nuts. The company is top-down structurally wrong and personnel wrong.
Best bet would be flog it to VAG in 2021 and CW stay on board as some sort of commercial person, with a top egg as CEO.
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