Discussion
Car-Matt said:
Erm apart from Mclaren this year and Red Bull in previous years.........
Renault are rebuilding a team from more or less ground zero. Reb Bull were the de facto works team throughout much of their successful time. Once they realised Renault were restricting their influence on the powertrain, they jumped to a works deal with Honda. Could you see a Mercedes customer team beating Mercedes or the equivalent at Ferrari? Once Renault are up to speed in a season or two, do you expect McLaren to be ahead?
Williams is a grand old name without a grand lot of money and if it doesn't do something soon it'll be he recently departed Williams.
janesmith1950 said:
IN51GHT said:
That's really not the way it works, you cannot simply bolt parts from one car to another.
Actually, you can (assuming the base chassis is designed for it). Large swathes of Alfa Romeo, Haas and Toro Rosso are directly bolted on from their 'parent'. They can't transplant aero directly, however if budget limited teams like Williams could buy in enough from Mercedes, they could concentrate more of their resources into aero and less on unnecessarily bespoke parts.
The current powertrain regs make it very hard for a customer team to outperform a works-engined one. Tuppany teams like Williams should accept that and aim for the realistic goal of being best of the rest, until they could get a works deal.
janesmith1950 said:
Car-Matt said:
Erm apart from Mclaren this year and Red Bull in previous years.........
Renault are rebuilding a team from more or less ground zero. Once Renault are up to speed in a season or two, do you expect McLaren to be ahead?
.
I seem to remember a customer team winning the title in 2009 too with McLaren very much the factory outfit there.
To say that customers will never beat the manufacturers is pretty naive if you look back over the history of the sport.
The caveat here is that a Ferrari customer will NEVER beat the works team over a season.
The thing that always sticks in my head is when F1 were talking about manufacturers providing customer cars to buy, so the likes of Manor, Lotus/Caterham, HRT etc... could get into F1 with lower budget levels but Frank Williams vetoed that idea scared I'm sure they would then lose out on the F1 money bags if new teams finished ahead of them in the championship, so no faith in their own engineers. Also forgetting there would be no Frank Williams Racing, or Williams Grand Prix without customer cars as both started and in the case of FWR almost only used customer chassis. Their current predicament is purely self created based on stubbornness and poor management.
FourWheelDrift said:
. Their current predicament is purely self created based on stubbornness and poor management.
It really isn't, its because the manufacturers spit their dummy out if the regs make it easier for customer teams to find some parity, otherwise there is no incentive for the manufacturers to enter. Mercedes spent 5 years on the engine before 2014......how can a customer hope to compete with no cost cap/legislation?
The real issue is that we have no independent engine suppliers with which teams can be competitive as the costs of the engines are too high (to develop) and there isn't enough teams to buy them to spread the cost enough.
With two or three engine suppliers making a competitive well priced engine the grid would be very different OR customer cars
Car-Matt said:
It really isn't, its because the manufacturers spit their dummy out if the regs make it easier for customer teams to find some parity, otherwise there is no incentive for the manufacturers to enter.
Mercedes spent 5 years on the engine before 2014......how can a customer hope to compete with no cost cap/legislation?
The real issue is that we have no independent engine suppliers with which teams can be competitive as the costs of the engines are too high (to develop) and there isn't enough teams to buy them to spread the cost enough.
With two or three engine suppliers making a competitive well priced engine the grid would be very different OR customer cars
Absolutely right.Mercedes spent 5 years on the engine before 2014......how can a customer hope to compete with no cost cap/legislation?
The real issue is that we have no independent engine suppliers with which teams can be competitive as the costs of the engines are too high (to develop) and there isn't enough teams to buy them to spread the cost enough.
With two or three engine suppliers making a competitive well priced engine the grid would be very different OR customer cars
Trouble is there's the whole hybrid element to consider too. First thought would be to have a common hybrid system across the grid, however that is at odds with the F1 ethos of encouraging development and innovation. The latter is what keeps manufacturers (some!) interested in being involved in the hunt and battle.
Best suggestion that I've heard may be considered for 2021 is to have some standardisation in packaging and things like bolt patterns and prescriptive engine bay shape and volume. A customer team could change from engine to engine supplier without having to re-engineer the car, and this would also limit the advantage that the manufacturers have in being able to shape their bodywork around the motor in their CFD CAD as much, with the customer's left to play catch-up.
Car-Matt said:
Erm this is year 4, they have a lot of staff now and they have spent big on the facilities, its a 5 year programme and to be frank their plan was to be firmly challenging for podiums regularly now with a plan to a title push before the regulation changes, Renault are way off the pace and have errored big time, Mclaren have their house in order, I feel McLaren will be ahead yes, and if the cost caps come in as they are supposed to then i suggest the factory teams will have less of an advantag and give customers much more of a fighting chance.
I seem to remember a customer team winning the title in 2009 too with McLaren very much the factory outfit there.
To say that customers will never beat the manufacturers is pretty naive if you look back over the history of the sport.
The caveat here is that a Ferrari customer will NEVER beat the works team over a season.
You've ignored the important part- in this era of powertrains. In which case, the history isn't that relevant. In the currebt era, Honda and Renault in their own rights are, despite enormous budgets, unable to dent Mercedes or Ferrari.I seem to remember a customer team winning the title in 2009 too with McLaren very much the factory outfit there.
To say that customers will never beat the manufacturers is pretty naive if you look back over the history of the sport.
The caveat here is that a Ferrari customer will NEVER beat the works team over a season.
It may change from 2021, if there are sufficient spec parts, however non-manufacturer backed teams have two hopes under the current regs. Bob is one...
If you go down the route of one or two engine suppliers, standardised tub and aero designs, you're looking at IndyCar aren't you?
Perhaps Williams should look at that instead? Because it's clear if your surname is Wiiliams, you'll let your company die rather than become Mercedes Williams or Honda Williams, or XXXX Williams.
Perhaps Williams should look at that instead? Because it's clear if your surname is Wiiliams, you'll let your company die rather than become Mercedes Williams or Honda Williams, or XXXX Williams.
As it's Monaco next, which can get a bit 'car breaky', even during practice/quali, a hypothetical question:
Williams have this one spare tub, whatever state it's in, lost track after all the swapping!
If both cars spun off (they seem to do that) and casued damage requiring a new tub for the rebuild, they would be out of at least the next 3 races. Possibly 4 if it happened ahead of race day. I know that kind of impact is unlikely at Monaco, normally slower speed crunches, but it could happen at any track. Or they could lose one tub at one race, then another several weeks later, but several weeks ahead of the in production 'new' spare being ready.
My own question makes me think they must be already producing another spare. The risk of having a car off the grid for long enough to be removed from the competition is surely to much of a risk. I assume if they were kicked out under such circumstances, their sponsorship deals (staged payments) would cease immediately, which would be pretty terminal.
Williams have this one spare tub, whatever state it's in, lost track after all the swapping!
If both cars spun off (they seem to do that) and casued damage requiring a new tub for the rebuild, they would be out of at least the next 3 races. Possibly 4 if it happened ahead of race day. I know that kind of impact is unlikely at Monaco, normally slower speed crunches, but it could happen at any track. Or they could lose one tub at one race, then another several weeks later, but several weeks ahead of the in production 'new' spare being ready.
My own question makes me think they must be already producing another spare. The risk of having a car off the grid for long enough to be removed from the competition is surely to much of a risk. I assume if they were kicked out under such circumstances, their sponsorship deals (staged payments) would cease immediately, which would be pretty terminal.
They seem to have done well since the low point of pre season testing.
The cars have been reliable and they've had spares to repair as necessary.
Shortly after posters on here were saying they would be soon be insolvent and wouldn't attract new sponsorship.. they announce sponsorship by The Financial Times. One assumes the FT can conduct robust due diligence and wouldn't want to sponsor a Company about to go into administration.
The cars have been reliable and they've had spares to repair as necessary.
Shortly after posters on here were saying they would be soon be insolvent and wouldn't attract new sponsorship.. they announce sponsorship by The Financial Times. One assumes the FT can conduct robust due diligence and wouldn't want to sponsor a Company about to go into administration.
Tyre Smoke said:
I can't understand why they are so short of spares IF there is still money in the bank.
Some stuff Claire said about wanting to focus on new parts to increase performance now they have finally got a 'sufficient stock' of spares. Right... One tub and a few front wings I guess. Then of course a tub got damaged in Baku. If a shortage of tubs could take a team out of the competition, then surely 'sufficient' spares is a spare tub per car at least? And then I imagine most teams would have another, to act as the new spare if one is used, whilst a further spare is made.Kind of need to be on the front foot with spares. Seems they're on the back foot which in turn, seems pretty risky.
I don't accept it's money either. They're not a wealthy team, but the actual material costs to produce a part are a drop in the ocean. More likely just scheduling or delays for whatever reason. The car itself was late so I guess it follows the spares would be too. But then it still makes no sense why they built just one spare tub, building two can be done concurrently (more or less).
Maybe it just comes down to very bad decision making.
I hear you, and see what you're saying, but we are weeks into the racing season now. How long does it take with 700+ employees to lay up and build a tub? They have the design, they have the spec sheet, making it is the easy, and should be quick, bit.
If it's not money, what is it? They have the staff, they have the tooling, they have the know how. What else could it possibly be?
If it's not money, what is it? They have the staff, they have the tooling, they have the know how. What else could it possibly be?
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