Discussion
williamp said:
Not that he would, but if Lewis went to a back marker team: williams, haas, racing point etc, he would bring massive cash with him.
I'm not sure he would. Yes he has a great profile, but it's so intrinsically linked to being a multiple world champion and serial winner. I can see sponsors being a bit...cautious...if he decided to go to a massively underperforming team.Fundoreen said:
The new regs as shown so far for 2021 look promising for williams. All those twiddly bits that only the best and richest teams can get right will be gone.
Cars will stick to the road due to the return of ground effect.
The only fly in the ointment would appear to be Mclaren angling for a supply of Mercedes engines.
racing point and williams have been poor lately so will one of them lose their supply as mercedes may like a team that pushes them to improve.
A bit like what mclaren is doing for renaults effort.
The problem is... The budget cap isn't likely to favour Williams. It's anticipated to be £150m ish. Which is above the revenue they manage to achieve in any case. Driver and key senior team members are to be excluded from the cap too along with various other expenses related to marketing and hosting.Cars will stick to the road due to the return of ground effect.
The only fly in the ointment would appear to be Mclaren angling for a supply of Mercedes engines.
racing point and williams have been poor lately so will one of them lose their supply as mercedes may like a team that pushes them to improve.
A bit like what mclaren is doing for renaults effort.
Those excluded expenses for the top teams are likely another £100m+ and there is plenty of evidence that the top tier of 'key senior team members' that have massive salaries do make a competitive difference.
Fundoreen said:
The new regs as shown so far for 2021 look promising for williams. All those twiddly bits that only the best and richest teams can get right will be gone.
Cars will stick to the road due to the return of ground effect.
The only fly in the ointment would appear to be Mclaren angling for a supply of Mercedes engines.
racing point and williams have been poor lately so will one of them lose their supply as mercedes may like a team that pushes them to improve.
A bit like what mclaren is doing for renaults effort.
To be fair it's never sat right really that McLaren use Renault engines. McLaren Renault doesn't work, and to be honest Williams Mercedes doesn't work either.Cars will stick to the road due to the return of ground effect.
The only fly in the ointment would appear to be Mclaren angling for a supply of Mercedes engines.
racing point and williams have been poor lately so will one of them lose their supply as mercedes may like a team that pushes them to improve.
A bit like what mclaren is doing for renaults effort.
Maybe soon it'll be back to McLaren Mercedes and Williams Renault? I don't know, but I don't think JordanMidlandSpykerForceIndiaRacingPoint will lose out on their Mercedes engine as they're more up for being a B team for Mercedes than Williams.
Then, maybe, Williams could persuade Porsche to join in? Doubtful though, but I can't see Renault sticking around much longer if they can't get their works team right.
sgtBerbatov said:
...but I can't see Renault sticking around much longer if they can't get their works team right.
This is the important bit.As embarrassing as it is for Renault's works team to be beaten by the 'privateer' McLarens, it is a big name team and in recent races the trend seems to be both McLaren and Renault being the 'best of the rest' behind the top 3 teams and a general upward trajectory.
What's important is that Renault are now looking like the worst engine, behind Honda. If they lose McLaren, then I don't see any positives to them hanging around with the slowest of the Works teams and a customer supply to the back of the grid.
As an aside point, and I know it's been mentioned before, but I'd like to see an Engine Suppliers World Championship alongside the drivers and constructors. It would provide a different way of looking at which teams to supply and may in the long term provide an incentive for the likes of Cosworth to just do engine supply.
Anyway, back to Williams...
Norfolkit said:
But who is the real problem Frank or Claire (or both).
It's easy to see how Frank could think, I turned a back of the grid, flat broke team into the best team in the world. I've done it once so I can do it again. Maybe he could, I don't think he can but maybe he does. Not being an insider it's impossible to know what influence Frank still has.
But was Frank, himself, responsible for turning a back of the grid, flat broke team into the best in the world?It's easy to see how Frank could think, I turned a back of the grid, flat broke team into the best team in the world. I've done it once so I can do it again. Maybe he could, I don't think he can but maybe he does. Not being an insider it's impossible to know what influence Frank still has.
I will let others on here with far better knowledge of the era comment, but watching the Williams' film made me feel that Frank is undoubtedly passionate and obsessive about F1, but he founded one team that was back of the grid that only picked up in performance when Wolf bought it and then started again to found another largely unremarkable team until Patrick Head came on board. Although the start of my time following F1 coincided with Williams being a giant, how much of that was Frank's influence and how much was that of others?
What is undeniable is Frank's resilience and commitment to continue in F1 and, Ferrari aside, I feel that the sport's future lies better in the hands of facing teams like Williams and McLaren who are committed long term to F1 than in the hands of any manufacturer.
For that reason alone, and given their longevity during tough seasons when manufacturers would have walked by now, I feel that Williams and McLaren are as deserving of (at least part of) the payment received by Ferrari for being there since the start.
TheDeuce said:
The problem is... The budget cap isn't likely to favour Williams. It's anticipated to be £150m ish. Which is above the revenue they manage to achieve in any case. Driver and key senior team members are to be excluded from the cap too along with various other expenses related to marketing and hosting.
Those excluded expenses for the top teams are likely another £100m+ and there is plenty of evidence that the top tier of 'key senior team members' that have massive salaries do make a competitive difference.
I agree, the limit is just too high, it might just bring McLaren and Renault into play. The top 3 will still cherry-pick the best drivers, designers etc, so, ultimately not a lot of difference.Those excluded expenses for the top teams are likely another £100m+ and there is plenty of evidence that the top tier of 'key senior team members' that have massive salaries do make a competitive difference.
rdjohn said:
TheDeuce said:
The problem is... The budget cap isn't likely to favour Williams. It's anticipated to be £150m ish. Which is above the revenue they manage to achieve in any case. Driver and key senior team members are to be excluded from the cap too along with various other expenses related to marketing and hosting.
Those excluded expenses for the top teams are likely another £100m+ and there is plenty of evidence that the top tier of 'key senior team members' that have massive salaries do make a competitive difference.
I agree, the limit is just too high, it might just bring McLaren and Renault into play. The top 3 will still cherry-pick the best drivers, designers etc, so, ultimately not a lot of difference.Those excluded expenses for the top teams are likely another £100m+ and there is plenty of evidence that the top tier of 'key senior team members' that have massive salaries do make a competitive difference.
gshughes said:
I think Williams do get some sort of heritage payment don't they, although it is not as much as Ferrari.
It's performance linked sadly... And that is based over two of the last 3 years. So assuming next year is similar to this year (it really will be, there is no reason to suspect otherwise) then their last 3 years performance come 2021 season will be as low as possible - as low as ever really. They are also given extra solely for the previous seasons performance - so that will be zero for 2020 based on 2019. You can see that having last seasons and this seasons terrible performance really will harm them financially. A significant part of their budget will be cut overall - assuming the payouts are still calculated on the same basis as the link below.Here are the 2017 figures: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/129388/formula-1...
You may notice they got no increase for heritage - I honestly don't know why. It makes little sense to even have a 'heritage' payment if you have to be even older as a team than Williams in order to get anything from it.
The main point is - that it's actually not acceptable to be 'in F1' for the sake of it for multiple seasons. If the performance is zero they can't drag on the charade indefinitely just because they manage to produce a qualifying car and sufficient sponsorship to drag it to each circuit. After a couple of years of doing that, they payments from FOM will reduce and god knows what that will do to their cash-flow for the next couple of years. This is why the budget cap that Claire has fought for the last few years really won't help them - they're forever getting further away from even reaching the cap that will be set.
The $10M payment in the 'other' column is their special payment just for being Williams. Column 2 is the only slice of the payment that is related to previous seasons' performance, and they'll still get a small percentage of that for finishing 10th. Plus they will of course still get their equal share of column 1.
Based on the figures in that table, they will still receive $55-60M for this year's performance, which will still be more than at least one of the teams that will finish ahead of them, courtesy of that extra $10M they get.
Based on the figures in that table, they will still receive $55-60M for this year's performance, which will still be more than at least one of the teams that will finish ahead of them, courtesy of that extra $10M they get.
thegreenhell said:
The $10M payment in the 'other' column is their special payment just for being Williams. Column 2 is the only slice of the payment that is related to previous seasons' performance, and they'll still get a small percentage of that for finishing 10th. Plus they will of course still get their equal share of column 1.
Based on the figures in that table, they will still receive $55-60M for this year's performance, which will still be more than at least one of the teams that will finish ahead of them, courtesy of that extra $10M they get.
Sorry Greenhell, can't load up the article again now without subscribing to look at what you're saying...Based on the figures in that table, they will still receive $55-60M for this year's performance, which will still be more than at least one of the teams that will finish ahead of them, courtesy of that extra $10M they get.
My point was that the extended poor performance, especially if it extends to next year as it surely will, will drop their average quite significantly going into 2021 - a season they appear to have been 'surviving' to get to in order to get a better chance from that point forwards.
And being ahead of a single team in terms of payout isn't enough to offset the fact that unlike that they have a bloated team/operation to bankroll before even starting on a 2021 car.
At the end of the day, 2-3 years of 'on yer arse' performance in F1 will diminish both their share of the pot and their value to sponsors. The only antidote for that vicious cycle is to instigate change so significant that investors/sponsors can be excited about getting a bargain on a team about to turn a corner. so.. they need to do something significant, soon. As ever, I vote sell the team.
C Lee Farquar said:
The heritage payment was a hang over from Bernie's divide and conquer management.
Bernie helped Frank in the early years, Frank repaid with his loyalty and Bernie rewarded it. Nothing to do with performance.
But they don't get a heritage payment. They do however get a performance payment. Such as it is - given the performance.Bernie helped Frank in the early years, Frank repaid with his loyalty and Bernie rewarded it. Nothing to do with performance.
TheDeuce said:
But they don't get a heritage payment. They do however get a performance payment. Such as it is - given the performance.
They get $10M heritage payment. Not as much as some others, but a heritage payment nonetheless.ETA - apart from Ferrari, they are actually the only other team to receive any extra payment based purely on heritage, or Bernie being a bit soft. The other four special payments (CCB - constructor's championship bonus) was nothing more than a bribe that Bernie gave them to make them commit to staying in the F1 championship at a time when Ferrari, McLaren, RBR and Mercedes were talking about a breakaway series.
Edited by thegreenhell on Thursday 18th July 21:15
thegreenhell said:
They get $10M heritage payment. Not as much as some others, but a heritage payment nonetheless.
ETA - apart from Ferrari, they are actually the only other team to receive any extra payment based purely on heritage, or Bernie being a bit soft. The other four special payments (CCB - constructor's championship bonus) was nothing more than a bribe that Bernie gave them to make them commit to staying in the F1 championship at a time when Ferrari, McLaren, RBR and Mercedes were talking about a breakaway series.
It's not a heritage payment officially though is it? It's in the other (sympathy/friendship) column. In spirit, I guess it's a heritage payment - I can't refer to it as such though - the person that authorised it and those that receive it won't refer to it as such.ETA - apart from Ferrari, they are actually the only other team to receive any extra payment based purely on heritage, or Bernie being a bit soft. The other four special payments (CCB - constructor's championship bonus) was nothing more than a bribe that Bernie gave them to make them commit to staying in the F1 championship at a time when Ferrari, McLaren, RBR and Mercedes were talking about a breakaway series.
Edited by thegreenhell on Thursday 18th July 21:15
It's only £10m anyway. It's clear that unless the pot is now divied up differently, that overall their extended period of poor performance will affect their FOM revenue slightly next season, quite significantly come 2021.
dgmx5 said:
But was Frank, himself, responsible for turning a back of the grid, flat broke team into the best in the world?
I will let others on here with far better knowledge of the era comment, but watching the Williams' film made me feel that Frank is undoubtedly passionate and obsessive about F1, but he founded one team that was back of the grid that only picked up in performance when Wolf bought it and then started again to found another largely unremarkable team until Patrick Head came on board. Although the start of my time following F1 coincided with Williams being a giant, how much of that was Frank's influence and how much was that of others?
What is undeniable is Frank's resilience and commitment to continue in F1 and, Ferrari aside, I feel that the sport's future lies better in the hands of facing teams like Williams and McLaren who are committed long term to F1 than in the hands of any manufacturer.
For that reason alone, and given their longevity during tough seasons when manufacturers would have walked by now, I feel that Williams and McLaren are as deserving of (at least part of) the payment received by Ferrari for being there since the start.
I had the same thoughts watching he movie, Head helped take the team to the top, Newey kept them there in the 90s and they have slipped slowly down since.I will let others on here with far better knowledge of the era comment, but watching the Williams' film made me feel that Frank is undoubtedly passionate and obsessive about F1, but he founded one team that was back of the grid that only picked up in performance when Wolf bought it and then started again to found another largely unremarkable team until Patrick Head came on board. Although the start of my time following F1 coincided with Williams being a giant, how much of that was Frank's influence and how much was that of others?
What is undeniable is Frank's resilience and commitment to continue in F1 and, Ferrari aside, I feel that the sport's future lies better in the hands of facing teams like Williams and McLaren who are committed long term to F1 than in the hands of any manufacturer.
For that reason alone, and given their longevity during tough seasons when manufacturers would have walked by now, I feel that Williams and McLaren are as deserving of (at least part of) the payment received by Ferrari for being there since the start.
Claire came across well, but she should with her PR background, but she didn't say anything that made you think she has a plan for turning the team around or even has a solid idea of what the current issues are.
cjm said:
dgmx5 said:
But was Frank, himself, responsible for turning a back of the grid, flat broke team into the best in the world?
I will let others on here with far better knowledge of the era comment, but watching the Williams' film made me feel that Frank is undoubtedly passionate and obsessive about F1, but he founded one team that was back of the grid that only picked up in performance when Wolf bought it and then started again to found another largely unremarkable team until Patrick Head came on board. Although the start of my time following F1 coincided with Williams being a giant, how much of that was Frank's influence and how much was that of others?
What is undeniable is Frank's resilience and commitment to continue in F1 and, Ferrari aside, I feel that the sport's future lies better in the hands of facing teams like Williams and McLaren who are committed long term to F1 than in the hands of any manufacturer.
For that reason alone, and given their longevity during tough seasons when manufacturers would have walked by now, I feel that Williams and McLaren are as deserving of (at least part of) the payment received by Ferrari for being there since the start.
I had the same thoughts watching he movie, Head helped take the team to the top, Newey kept them there in the 90s and they have slipped slowly down since.I will let others on here with far better knowledge of the era comment, but watching the Williams' film made me feel that Frank is undoubtedly passionate and obsessive about F1, but he founded one team that was back of the grid that only picked up in performance when Wolf bought it and then started again to found another largely unremarkable team until Patrick Head came on board. Although the start of my time following F1 coincided with Williams being a giant, how much of that was Frank's influence and how much was that of others?
What is undeniable is Frank's resilience and commitment to continue in F1 and, Ferrari aside, I feel that the sport's future lies better in the hands of facing teams like Williams and McLaren who are committed long term to F1 than in the hands of any manufacturer.
For that reason alone, and given their longevity during tough seasons when manufacturers would have walked by now, I feel that Williams and McLaren are as deserving of (at least part of) the payment received by Ferrari for being there since the start.
Claire came across well, but she should with her PR background, but she didn't say anything that made you think she has a plan for turning the team around or even has a solid idea of what the current issues are.
The Williams family are the major shareholders, so they will want and need to protect their investment, hence the sale of Valtteri Bottas to Mercedes in exchange for a season's worth of engines, and providing George Russell and Robert Kubica with employment.
Williams remind me more and more of the last days and ultimate death of Tyrrell, a once-great Championship winning team trying to swim against the tide and forced to look for a good deal as opposed to a good driver. They need both, of course, because Formula 1 runs on money to develop a competitive car, and somebody who can deliver some results and keep the sponsors happy. I don't know whether Kubica's contract is for 2019 or extends to 2020, but apart from the human interest element to his story, his backers can't be terribly impressed with seeing him firmly at the blunt end. The fact that his team-mate isn't making any progress either is not much comfort. As with Tyrrell, their salvation might be a sale, but right now it's hard to envisage potential buyers forming an orderly queue.
Williams lucked in during 1980 with the skirts. They built from there. The 80s and 90s were different times. Late 80s they knew what what was coming and prepared for it as best they could. In the 90’s they were relatively well resourced, good tech and drivers. They can’t compete in the current landscape. Even if they didn’t have their current cock up of a car they would at best be midfielders .
dgmx5 said:
Norfolkit said:
But who is the real problem Frank or Claire (or both).
It's easy to see how Frank could think, I turned a back of the grid, flat broke team into the best team in the world. I've done it once so I can do it again. Maybe he could, I don't think he can but maybe he does. Not being an insider it's impossible to know what influence Frank still has.
But was Frank, himself, responsible for turning a back of the grid, flat broke team into the best in the world?It's easy to see how Frank could think, I turned a back of the grid, flat broke team into the best team in the world. I've done it once so I can do it again. Maybe he could, I don't think he can but maybe he does. Not being an insider it's impossible to know what influence Frank still has.
I will let others on here with far better knowledge of the era comment, but watching the Williams' film made me feel that Frank is undoubtedly passionate and obsessive about F1, but he founded one team that was back of the grid that only picked up in performance when Wolf bought it and then started again to found another largely unremarkable team until Patrick Head came on board. Although the start of my time following F1 coincided with Williams being a giant, how much of that was Frank's influence and how much was that of others?
Maybe Claire would be a good team principal if left to get on with it or maybe she is left to get on with it but just doesn't have the skill set needed. Impossible to judge from the outside
Russell buoyed by new ‘test items’ for Hockenheim
written by Harry Slade July 24, 2019
https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2019/07/russell...
Kubica looking forward to return to challenging Hockenheim
written by Harry Slade July 24, 2019
https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2019/07/kubica-...
written by Harry Slade July 24, 2019
https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2019/07/russell...
Kubica looking forward to return to challenging Hockenheim
written by Harry Slade July 24, 2019
https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2019/07/kubica-...
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