Discussion
NewUsername said:
Lets remember the other teams are not standing still ( Haas excepted lololol) so for Williams to stand still vs the rest let alone make back any ground is good.
It is but it is also much easier (relatively speaking) to make big gains from low starting points. To finish ahead of any car is huge for them so Sunday was amazing for the team. There is a long way to go of course but they do seem to be making good progresskambites said:
I think the Williams seat has the potential to be very good for Russel because it's given him a chance to learn his way around an F1 car with the only real valid point of comparison being a teammate he can comfortably beat. Now they seem to have got the car to the point where it's not seconds a lap off the pace he should get a chance to show whether he can race other drivers.
I think he really needs more of a known quantity as a teammate next year though to show how good he is. Ocon as a teammate would be a good chance because the teams already have a very good idea of his ability. If Williams end up with another rookie it'll be very hard for Russel to prove himself worthy of a drive in a better car.
Given a choice between Lando’s drive at McLaren, or his 3-year obligation to Williams, I feel certain that Russell would happily swap. He has the experience from F2 and handles the Merc quite well, when given the opportunity. Ocon blocking his next steppingstone is yet more more problem.I think he really needs more of a known quantity as a teammate next year though to show how good he is. Ocon as a teammate would be a good chance because the teams already have a very good idea of his ability. If Williams end up with another rookie it'll be very hard for Russel to prove himself worthy of a drive in a better car.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 6th August 09:42
2021 will bring about a big shake up, and so Williams might make rapid progress. However I struggle to have great confidence in a Figurehead TP and his puppet Deputy.
Radical change towards inspirational leadership is still urgently needed.
Here’s GR’s opening lap... from Hungary.
Yes this is a Williams, great driving...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B01QZmCBOBM/?igshid=1i...
Yes this is a Williams, great driving...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B01QZmCBOBM/?igshid=1i...
Deesee said:
Here’s GR’s opening lap... from Hungary.
Yes this is a Williams, great driving...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B01QZmCBOBM/?igshid=1i...
Talented boyYes this is a Williams, great driving...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B01QZmCBOBM/?igshid=1i...
I still think there is more to it than meets the eye when it comes to Kubica vs. Russell. I look forward to finding out one day whether the two Williams are in the same configuration and condition.
Everybody was saying that due to his limitation Robert would struggle with the tight corners of Monaco and with quick, instinctive steering movements such are required in wet conditions. Monaco and Germany have been his best performances.
Russell is probably a truly great driver and destined for big things but I find it hard to believe the gap to Kubica.
Everybody was saying that due to his limitation Robert would struggle with the tight corners of Monaco and with quick, instinctive steering movements such are required in wet conditions. Monaco and Germany have been his best performances.
Russell is probably a truly great driver and destined for big things but I find it hard to believe the gap to Kubica.
HustleRussell said:
I still think there is more to it than meets the eye when it comes to Kubica vs. Russell. I look forward to finding out one day whether the two Williams are in the same configuration and condition.
Everybody was saying that due to his limitation Robert would struggle with the tight corners of Monaco and with quick, instinctive steering movements such are required in wet conditions. Monaco and Germany have been his best performances.
Russell is probably a truly great driver and destined for big things but I find it hard to believe the gap to Kubica.
Its hardly one of life's greatest mysteriesEverybody was saying that due to his limitation Robert would struggle with the tight corners of Monaco and with quick, instinctive steering movements such are required in wet conditions. Monaco and Germany have been his best performances.
Russell is probably a truly great driver and destined for big things but I find it hard to believe the gap to Kubica.
Older injured man with no current tyre experience who tested slower over long runs than contemporary drivers for two teams qualifies close-ish to his team mate in the main and then gets humped in the races in the main.
I don't think Sherlock and Dr Watson are required here
This discussion about GR and RK performances is really interesting to me because it shows how far F1 community can be from the paddock's reality. The news we get from mainstream F1 media just focus on performances or money because they these are easily measurable. However F1 reality is much more complex and does not follow the logic of Formula 1 fans.
Let me give you some examples:
Latifi replacing Kubica
A month ago all mainstream F1 sources (and F1 forum users following them) were replacing Kubica with Latifi. You didn't need a Sherlock or Dr Watson to realize it was just a clickbait. Latifi just hadn't accumulated enough superlicense points. Another interesting fact, that most of the community was ignoring, is that RK's contract with Williams is very strong. It was signed for 2019 with an option of extension to 2020. Orlen's chairman made a Freudian slip one day and said that it is a 2-year contract (so for 2019 and 2020). I really doubt it. However this mistake can be an evidence of the contract's strength and that Orlen's management counts on extending it for 2020. One can say that it's not possible for Kubica to stay in F1 after his poor results but remember that he has got one point while Russell none and we don't know how this option for extension in Kubica's contract is constructed. And the rumors say that Sirotkin's contract was to be automatically extended for 2019 if he outperformed Stroll before summer break (finally Stroll had 1 point and Sirotkin 0).
Russell to join Mercedes in 2020
GR fans (and George himself) saw him in a better team in 2020. Mercedes was the most likely option, followed by Racing Point. But recently, first Claire Williams (after discussion with Toto) and then Toto himself denied it. Toto said George still needs to learn and Williams is the better environment for him than Mercedes. We all can wonder what is the real reason behind this but clearly Toto has a significant influence on Williams decisions and Russell is a part of a wider deal between teams (probably engines).
Now, if you followed Kubica's case before the hype that started around 2017 with his tests for Renault in Valencia, you would see that one of the first persons that convinced Kubica to return to professional racing was Toto Wolff. He offered him racing in Mercesed DTM (which Kubica rejected many times) and then in 2014 he invited him to Mercedes for F1 simulator driving tests. This guy knows more about Robert than the community. Did he help him to get into Williams? Who knows.
I have a gut feeling that Mercedes is aware that judging Russell's performance by a simple comparison with Kubica is, at this moment, not enough.
Russell's opening lap excitement
Russell is good, he had a great weekend. Definitely a talented driver. But... RK had outperformed him many times on opening laps. Best example is Monaco, where RK gained 5 positions early on and on this very tight track where he wasn't supposed to drive at all with just one hand. And it was done in the beginning of the season before William's major updates to the car.
Just my two cents.
Let me give you some examples:
Latifi replacing Kubica
A month ago all mainstream F1 sources (and F1 forum users following them) were replacing Kubica with Latifi. You didn't need a Sherlock or Dr Watson to realize it was just a clickbait. Latifi just hadn't accumulated enough superlicense points. Another interesting fact, that most of the community was ignoring, is that RK's contract with Williams is very strong. It was signed for 2019 with an option of extension to 2020. Orlen's chairman made a Freudian slip one day and said that it is a 2-year contract (so for 2019 and 2020). I really doubt it. However this mistake can be an evidence of the contract's strength and that Orlen's management counts on extending it for 2020. One can say that it's not possible for Kubica to stay in F1 after his poor results but remember that he has got one point while Russell none and we don't know how this option for extension in Kubica's contract is constructed. And the rumors say that Sirotkin's contract was to be automatically extended for 2019 if he outperformed Stroll before summer break (finally Stroll had 1 point and Sirotkin 0).
Russell to join Mercedes in 2020
GR fans (and George himself) saw him in a better team in 2020. Mercedes was the most likely option, followed by Racing Point. But recently, first Claire Williams (after discussion with Toto) and then Toto himself denied it. Toto said George still needs to learn and Williams is the better environment for him than Mercedes. We all can wonder what is the real reason behind this but clearly Toto has a significant influence on Williams decisions and Russell is a part of a wider deal between teams (probably engines).
Now, if you followed Kubica's case before the hype that started around 2017 with his tests for Renault in Valencia, you would see that one of the first persons that convinced Kubica to return to professional racing was Toto Wolff. He offered him racing in Mercesed DTM (which Kubica rejected many times) and then in 2014 he invited him to Mercedes for F1 simulator driving tests. This guy knows more about Robert than the community. Did he help him to get into Williams? Who knows.
I have a gut feeling that Mercedes is aware that judging Russell's performance by a simple comparison with Kubica is, at this moment, not enough.
Russell's opening lap excitement
Russell is good, he had a great weekend. Definitely a talented driver. But... RK had outperformed him many times on opening laps. Best example is Monaco, where RK gained 5 positions early on and on this very tight track where he wasn't supposed to drive at all with just one hand. And it was done in the beginning of the season before William's major updates to the car.
Just my two cents.
Deesee said:
Here’s GR’s opening lap... from Hungary.
Yes this is a Williams, great driving...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B01QZmCBOBM/?igshid=1i...
Reminds me of Hartley’s opening lap last year at the COTA. Yes this is a Williams, great driving...
https://www.instagram.com/p/B01QZmCBOBM/?igshid=1i...
It’s not that I don’t believe George Russell isn’t faster than Robert Kubica, it’s the size of the gaps over the season which I don’t get.
Robert has been quite outspoken about his view on the state of prep of the car. In reference in the gap to his team mate he hasn’t often held his hands up and admitted a driving error or made specific excuses about the session etc. Williams aren’t as a rule countering Robert’s criticisms of the car.
So do we have a slow driver who is past it and is blaming the car to save face? Or is there some truth in what Robert is saying?
We can only guess based on what we know about Robert and the 2019 Williams team…
1.3 second delta in Hungary? Is that all driver delta or is some of that car?
Unfortunately I fear that Robert could be out of the sport before we find out the whole story, and I don’t know whether that’ll be Robert’s sponsors pulling the plug or Williams getting another driver in the car. I want to see more.
Robert has been quite outspoken about his view on the state of prep of the car. In reference in the gap to his team mate he hasn’t often held his hands up and admitted a driving error or made specific excuses about the session etc. Williams aren’t as a rule countering Robert’s criticisms of the car.
So do we have a slow driver who is past it and is blaming the car to save face? Or is there some truth in what Robert is saying?
We can only guess based on what we know about Robert and the 2019 Williams team…
1.3 second delta in Hungary? Is that all driver delta or is some of that car?
Unfortunately I fear that Robert could be out of the sport before we find out the whole story, and I don’t know whether that’ll be Robert’s sponsors pulling the plug or Williams getting another driver in the car. I want to see more.
HustleRussell said:
I don’t know whether that’ll be Robert’s sponsors pulling the plug
It is very, very unlikely as Orlen is a very powerful company with Polish government as a main shareholder. They have publicly declared unconditional support for Robert many times. Supporting Kubica is not only a business (Orlen is an oil company what fits F1 perfectly) but also a patriotic duty (and a way to gain support for the upcoming elections).What is more likely though is that Orlen could be outbid by other players. Not sure if Orlen would be willing to raise the financial support significantly. 20 millions are certainly doable but what if Latifis offered more, let say 30 millions?
Lebo44 said:
HustleRussell said:
I don’t know whether that’ll be Robert’s sponsors pulling the plug
It is very, very unlikely as Orlen is a very powerful company with Polish government as a main shareholder. They have publicly declared unconditional support for Robert many times. Supporting Kubica is not only a business (Orlen is an oil company what fits F1 perfectly) but also a patriotic duty (and a way to gain support for the upcoming elections).What is more likely though is that Orlen could be outbid by other players. Not sure if Orlen would be willing to raise the financial support significantly. 20 millions are certainly doable but what if Latifis offered more, let say 30 millions?
HustleRussell said:
1.3 second delta in Hungary? Is that all driver delta or is some of that car?
This has been already explained by Kubica. He said that the 'real' difference between him and GR in Hungaroring quals was around 0.6 sec. 1.3 sec gap was a result of a kind of desperate experiment with car's settings that was supposed to close this gap. Unfortunately this worked the other way and the gap widened by additional 0.7 sec.He said that his car, with the exactly same settings as Russell's behaved in completely different way. That's why he had to tried something different but it didn't work. On the other side he had front wing broken over the whole weekend.
HustleRussell said:
But do they have unconditional support for Williams?
If there's even the slightest chance for Robert to change teams he will try it and Orlen will follow him. Orlen's CEO said that decision is only on Robert's side and they will just follow him.But it seems that, given the results, the only chance for him to stay in F1 for 2020 is with Williams.
Lebo44 said:
HustleRussell said:
1.3 second delta in Hungary? Is that all driver delta or is some of that car?
This has been already explained by Kubica. He said that the 'real' difference between him and GR in Hungaroring quals was around 0.6 sec. 1.3 sec gap was a result of a kind of desperate experiment with car's settings that was supposed to close this gap. Unfortunately this worked the other way and the gap widened by additional 0.7 sec.He said that his car, with the exactly same settings as Russell's behaved in completely different way. That's why he had to tried something different but it didn't work. On the other side he had front wing broken over the whole weekend.
Even if they had 'the same settings' its very possible the delta could be achieved by tyre prep an use. We know RK is generally slower than GR anyway, add to that the documented epiphany that GR had with tyre prep ( unsure if this was shared with RK or not) then that delta is more than believable
NewUsername said:
Wheres the source for this anecdotal evidence of the gap, ie direct quotes from RK to press and the evidence of a broken front wing?
I dont' know why I couldn't find any source in English.But you can check this, one of many reliable sources in Polish.
http://www.sport.pl/F1/7,96296,25058105,robert-kub...
This part is interesting (translated with Google) as RK claims he should have been ahead of GR in quals two times already:
"We need to understand the differences that occur from weekend to weekend. I should be ahead of George twice in qualifying, but at Silverstone and Hockenheim my front wing got damaged during qualifying. Meanwhile, here I was driving almost a second slower than him, because I estimate the real loss at 0.6 seconds but really more important than times is the feeling in the car."
The RK performance stuff is interesting... as is the sheer volume of hate directed towards Williams on the teams Facebook posts from Polish fans.
They seem to truely believe Williams are hobbling Roberts car in favour of George!
My own thoughts on this are:
On the circuits/conditions where experience can trump raw talent, Robert has edged George.
Everywhere else when you can live on your talent and reflexes - it's George all the way.
Why would any team, let alone one with the struggles of Williams, want to impact their chances of a result?
If there are differences in the cars setup/design/equipment then its possible these could be adaptions to assist Robert overcome any issues as a result of his injury?
They seem to truely believe Williams are hobbling Roberts car in favour of George!
My own thoughts on this are:
On the circuits/conditions where experience can trump raw talent, Robert has edged George.
Everywhere else when you can live on your talent and reflexes - it's George all the way.
Why would any team, let alone one with the struggles of Williams, want to impact their chances of a result?
If there are differences in the cars setup/design/equipment then its possible these could be adaptions to assist Robert overcome any issues as a result of his injury?
Most interesting parts from RK's post-Hungaroring interviews, translated by DeepL Translator, to spare you some time on translating. This interview was not published in non-polish media for some reason.
It looked like you had a better pace on harder tires, for a long time even better than George.
RK: I feel like I've never driven fast before. I didn't have a good feeling. All I can do is go away and take care of my tires. But the feeling in the car was the same from start to finish. After 12 races of the season I don't have a lot of cool things to remember and summarize. It wasn't an easy start and the whole half of the season. I hope that the second one will be better. We have to understand the differences between the weekend and the weekend. I should have been ahead of George twice in qualifying recently, but at Silverstone and Hockenheim my front wing was damaged in qualifying. Meanwhile, I was driving almost a second slower than him here, because I estimate the real loss at 0.6 seconds, but in fact the feeling in the car is more important than the times themselves.
George's qualifying showed that something was moving, didn't it?
RK: I'm sure George had better performance here, but the car was the same as last week in Germany, and there wasn't much progress there. We managed to get closer to the others in the qualifying and beat a few cars. After the summer holidays we'll have to compete on completely different tracks and then we'll be able to say more about getting close to the teams ahead of us. I hope that in the second part of the season we will have more stability in the car, because that's where it all starts. If it is stable and predictable, you can focus on working on the details.
It looked like you had a better pace on harder tires, for a long time even better than George.
RK: I feel like I've never driven fast before. I didn't have a good feeling. All I can do is go away and take care of my tires. But the feeling in the car was the same from start to finish. After 12 races of the season I don't have a lot of cool things to remember and summarize. It wasn't an easy start and the whole half of the season. I hope that the second one will be better. We have to understand the differences between the weekend and the weekend. I should have been ahead of George twice in qualifying recently, but at Silverstone and Hockenheim my front wing was damaged in qualifying. Meanwhile, I was driving almost a second slower than him here, because I estimate the real loss at 0.6 seconds, but in fact the feeling in the car is more important than the times themselves.
George's qualifying showed that something was moving, didn't it?
RK: I'm sure George had better performance here, but the car was the same as last week in Germany, and there wasn't much progress there. We managed to get closer to the others in the qualifying and beat a few cars. After the summer holidays we'll have to compete on completely different tracks and then we'll be able to say more about getting close to the teams ahead of us. I hope that in the second part of the season we will have more stability in the car, because that's where it all starts. If it is stable and predictable, you can focus on working on the details.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff