Discussion
jsf said:
ffhard said:
If that's the case then they're idiots and not serious about being in business.
You cant work with someone you hate. They are in different businesses and will not be working together in future.As for being serious about business.. as it's currently set up a hamster could understand that Williams F1 is not a workable business, regardless of new regs or cost caps. Claire might say that the team is all about the people... But the moment a new majority owner takes control, they'll blame the old guard for overstaffing and streamline to restructure the whole operation and make it fit in to F1 in a relevant and effective way.
If Claire was really about the team and it's people, she would have done what the future owners will do - years ago. But I get the distinct impression she's actually more about what Dad wants than reality. Which I understand fully, and it's fair enough. But it's not business.
skwdenyer said:
TheDeuce said:
C Lee Farquar said:
He would need Frank's consent to get voting control.
Obviously not if a group amassed a majority stake. Frank has to either decide to release that level for sale or not.The question is whether Frank wants to lose control of the Group or part with the team. Since AIUI the Group owns the buildings etc., selling on the team would probably be the best thing financially.
I can see the "legacy" being Claire and her brother (sorry forget the name) together running in essence a heritage business + conference centre, with the GP team under new control.
As per my above post - I can't see Claire and her bro teaming up ever.. but in principle I think it's true that there would be tremendous marketing value in somehow keeping the family involved. I doubt they would take a purely token role or a timelocked 'heritage' interest. But perhaps a bridge role between F1 learnings and FE management via Claire could be a thing. I do think Claire would remain as long as she felt she was being inspirational and had some value.
As for Frank... Not sure what to do with him. I'm pretty certain that nothing other than things staying exactly as they are today will meet with his approval.
A reasonable summary here of the points in recent history at which Williams could have taken a different path. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEnWJnr3nfU
I'm not sure I agree that thy could have done so well with Honda as RB have done. But I do think the extra money and support from such a partnership could have at least kept them midfield competitive and subsequently maintained sufficient sponsor income to keep them going.
Also note the general consensus throughout the above video that Williams are essentially stubborn! Brundle tries to soften that a little by saying hindsight is a wonderful thing... If I recall quite a few on this very forum were pointing out that same stubbornness and certainty of eventual failure for about two years now. I don't think anyone in the sport can really claim to be surprised by what has now happened - albeit sped up a little by CV in the end.
I'm not sure I agree that thy could have done so well with Honda as RB have done. But I do think the extra money and support from such a partnership could have at least kept them midfield competitive and subsequently maintained sufficient sponsor income to keep them going.
Also note the general consensus throughout the above video that Williams are essentially stubborn! Brundle tries to soften that a little by saying hindsight is a wonderful thing... If I recall quite a few on this very forum were pointing out that same stubbornness and certainty of eventual failure for about two years now. I don't think anyone in the sport can really claim to be surprised by what has now happened - albeit sped up a little by CV in the end.
No idea if Honda was in any way an option for williams but its the usual cynical F1 activity which seems to be normalized by the
pundits.
It would have been more of the same pain for Honda. In fact the sauber deal was just that.
Lucky for Honda that Ferrari wanted to promote the Alfa brand and Honda got bumped to Torro Rosso and the rest is history.
pundits.
It would have been more of the same pain for Honda. In fact the sauber deal was just that.
Lucky for Honda that Ferrari wanted to promote the Alfa brand and Honda got bumped to Torro Rosso and the rest is history.
Fundoreen said:
No idea if Honda was in any way an option for williams but its the usual cynical F1 activity which seems to be normalized by the
pundits.
It would have been more of the same pain for Honda. In fact the sauber deal was just that.
Lucky for Honda that Ferrari wanted to promote the Alfa brand and Honda got bumped to Torro Rosso and the rest is history.
Yes, from Honda's point of view, their re-re-return to F1 via TR and then TR+RB could hardly have turned out better. Might have been better for Williams to have partnered up with them, but I doubt the partnership could have been as successful. RB have a championship winning scale of budget and the likes of Newey to ensure that the partnership yields real results.pundits.
It would have been more of the same pain for Honda. In fact the sauber deal was just that.
Lucky for Honda that Ferrari wanted to promote the Alfa brand and Honda got bumped to Torro Rosso and the rest is history.
Regardless of partnering with Honda or strengthening ties with Mercedes, Williams didn't want to do anything along those lines. Blatantly carrying on as they were couldn't work for very long, yet that is what they did. And now the inevitable is happening and I don't see how that is better for Williams than simply accepting changes had to be made in time to save their ownership of the team
TheDeuce said:
Fundoreen said:
No idea if Honda was in any way an option for williams but its the usual cynical F1 activity which seems to be normalized by the
pundits.
It would have been more of the same pain for Honda. In fact the sauber deal was just that.
Lucky for Honda that Ferrari wanted to promote the Alfa brand and Honda got bumped to Torro Rosso and the rest is history.
Yes, from Honda's point of view, their re-re-return to F1 via TR and then TR+RB could hardly have turned out better. Might have been better for Williams to have partnered up with them, but I doubt the partnership could have been as successful. RB have a championship winning scale of budget and the likes of Newey to ensure that the partnership yields real results.pundits.
It would have been more of the same pain for Honda. In fact the sauber deal was just that.
Lucky for Honda that Ferrari wanted to promote the Alfa brand and Honda got bumped to Torro Rosso and the rest is history.
Regardless of partnering with Honda or strengthening ties with Mercedes, Williams didn't want to do anything along those lines. Blatantly carrying on as they were couldn't work for very long, yet that is what they did. And now the inevitable is happening and I don't see how that is better for Williams than simply accepting changes had to be made in time to save their ownership of the team
Im suprised F1 gets any inward investment sometimes. I guess it plays to the vanity of some CEO somewhere what wants
a nice day out now and again for himself and his pals.
Then the accountant regains control of the death spiral lol.
TheDeuce said:
Fundoreen said:
No idea if Honda was in any way an option for williams but its the usual cynical F1 activity which seems to be normalized by the
pundits.
It would have been more of the same pain for Honda. In fact the sauber deal was just that.
Lucky for Honda that Ferrari wanted to promote the Alfa brand and Honda got bumped to Torro Rosso and the rest is history.
Yes, from Honda's point of view, their re-re-return to F1 via TR and then TR+RB could hardly have turned out better. Might have been better for Williams to have partnered up with them, but I doubt the partnership could have been as successful. RB have a championship winning scale of budget and the likes of Newey to ensure that the partnership yields real results.pundits.
It would have been more of the same pain for Honda. In fact the sauber deal was just that.
Lucky for Honda that Ferrari wanted to promote the Alfa brand and Honda got bumped to Torro Rosso and the rest is history.
Regardless of partnering with Honda or strengthening ties with Mercedes, Williams didn't want to do anything along those lines. Blatantly carrying on as they were couldn't work for very long, yet that is what they did. And now the inevitable is happening and I don't see how that is better for Williams than simply accepting changes had to be made in time to save their ownership of the team
Iirc Williams managed to be the only other team to have a double diffuser from the start of the season along side Brawn. They never master the blown diffuser and were glad to see the back of it when it was banned.
With Merc engines they were able to put on a decent showing at the power circuits where high downforce wasn’t a requirement. Elsewhere they were shown up. There cars have been lacking for a long time. Not even a Merc PU can mask thy now.
It’s seems to me Frank never really looked at growing the team. As it moving it forward, staying at the cutting edge. Looking at new trends. Innovating.
They were the team I followed and after last year I could see that as they are, they’re done.
I was really surprised how critical and vocal Williams were when they had a Mercedes engine problem in testing.
Come on Claire, Mercedes engines appear to be pretty much the only reason your team enjoyed relative success in the early V6T era.
Based on that, the moaning if Williams had adopted the early Honda engine would've been Alonso x100
Come on Claire, Mercedes engines appear to be pretty much the only reason your team enjoyed relative success in the early V6T era.
Based on that, the moaning if Williams had adopted the early Honda engine would've been Alonso x100
HustleRussell said:
I was really surprised how critical and vocal Williams were when they had a Mercedes engine problem in testing.
Come on Claire, Mercedes engines appear to be pretty much the only reason your team enjoyed relative success in the early V6T era.
Based on that, the moaning if Williams had adopted the early Honda engine would've been Alonso x100
You're probably right about that! ut I think even before considering pissing Honda off, I just can't see Frank and co wanting to partner with anyone, on any level other than a strict supplier>customer relationship. A one way relationship. So they probably never considered Honda in the way RB did in the forst place.Come on Claire, Mercedes engines appear to be pretty much the only reason your team enjoyed relative success in the early V6T era.
Based on that, the moaning if Williams had adopted the early Honda engine would've been Alonso x100
As a team they're simply not at all setup to be competitive so long as they insist on being truly independent. They've spent the last few years proving that - yet have left it until the damage is largely done before looking for external investment - and by extension, a change in majority ownership. No one is going to pour in the cash that team needs to be restored to fighting fit and keep on paying until decent sponsors return unless they have control of the team...
Williams wouldn't have gone near Honda after how Honda treated them in the 80's. They just pulled out without any sort of notice. Once bitten twice shy as it were.
I think with Mercedes they have, at least, a stable engine agreement. And while sure it's a bit rich of Williams to moan about the engine issues in testing, they are paying a good chunk of money to Mercedes for those engines. So they're well within their right to complain.
I think with Mercedes they have, at least, a stable engine agreement. And while sure it's a bit rich of Williams to moan about the engine issues in testing, they are paying a good chunk of money to Mercedes for those engines. So they're well within their right to complain.
sgtBerbatov said:
Williams wouldn't have gone near Honda after how Honda treated them in the 80's. They just pulled out without any sort of notice. Once bitten twice shy as it were.
I think with Mercedes they have, at least, a stable engine agreement. And while sure it's a bit rich of Williams to moan about the engine issues in testing, they are paying a good chunk of money to Mercedes for those engines. So they're well within their right to complain.
30 years is a millennium in F1 terms, if they hold a grudge against a talented engine builder for that long, they're setting themselves to have very few people they can do business with .. Also in that time Honda will have changed in various ways. I'd like to think that a team the size of Williams would have enough people to carry out a fresh study of potential suppliers, what position they're in, what motivates them to stay in the sport and for how long etc.. Basing Honda's behavior on what they did 30 years earlier would be very short sighted. That's not say the Williams family see it the same way!I think with Mercedes they have, at least, a stable engine agreement. And while sure it's a bit rich of Williams to moan about the engine issues in testing, they are paying a good chunk of money to Mercedes for those engines. So they're well within their right to complain.
But regardless Honda or Mercedes, the problem I see is not which one they chose, but they have continued as a traditional factory team without the money to make it effective. In the end, they refused to compete in a suitable manner for the position they were in, which is laudable in a way - I'd love it if all teams were truly independent still. But it was also guaranteed to sink them before long. As such, they couldn't afford the principles to which they subscribe.
I didn't want to see them become a strict b-team such as TR or Alfa, but there could surely have been a compromise partnership they could have forged with someone to give them an economic advantage. But no, each time Claire has addressed any such possibility it's been a brick wall of 'no'. Which has led to them hitting a brick wall of 'no money'. Passion, in excess of practicality.
Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 17th June 10:12
Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 17th June 10:13
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
sparta6 said:
The writing was already on the wall for British independent racing teams when Todt & co began taking the manufacturers Euros.
Kudos to Williams for lasting this long. David v Goliath it's certainly been
Is that Williams, previously BMW Williams?Kudos to Williams for lasting this long. David v Goliath it's certainly been
groomi said:
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
sparta6 said:
The writing was already on the wall for British independent racing teams when Todt & co began taking the manufacturers Euros.
Kudos to Williams for lasting this long. David v Goliath it's certainly been
Is that Williams, previously BMW Williams?Kudos to Williams for lasting this long. David v Goliath it's certainly been
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