Williams F1

[CallMeLegend]

If I am correct, a team name will mean any payment due under the Concord agreement will not be paid, I wonder where that puts Renault/Alpine

[vaud]

CallMeLegend said:

If I am correct, a team name will mean any payment due under the Concord agreement will not be paid, I wonder where that puts Renault/Alpine

We don't know enough about the agreement and clauses. Same parent company though is there is no material change in ownership?

[TheDeuce]

vaud said:

CallMeLegend said:

If I am correct, a team name will mean any payment due under the Concord agreement will not be paid, I wonder where that puts Renault/Alpine

We don't know enough about the agreement and clauses. Same parent company though is there is no material change in ownership?

Correct. The owners of the company have changed, but it's that same company that continues to field their F1 team entry. No change.

I believe they can't change the team entry name mid season without losing points/payment unless they're granted special permission. At least, that was what scuppered stroll & co when FI became RPFI to get around a rights issue and they lost all their points and £££

[sgtBerbatov]

thegreenhell said:

entropy said:

rider73 said:

I've been away and just catching up on all the F1 TV stuff -

sorry if already discussed to death - but was it me or was C4 and Sky Sports being incredibly kind when interviewing Clair Williams - if that was head of RBR, Ferrari or Renault they would ask a lot tougher questions - felt to me like a bit of a suck up - the "family" might have well built up a fantastic team back in the day, but they didn't know what to do, how to change or when to simply step back and say "Clair's not up to it" - instead they drove a great team into the ground and almost out of F1.... crossing fingers the new peeps will get this team back on track.
just IMHO of course.

I think the respect was deserved.

Despite her failings I think she was still respected because she is very personable who never played games with the media and her rivals.

Today's Missed Apex podcast with Joe Saward didn't pull any punches on this. It would be fair to say he wasn't her biggest fan.

I'm sure she'll be troubled by his views. She hasn't had a good night sleep for days after hearing his opinion.

[thegreenhell]

TheDeuce said:

vaud said:

CallMeLegend said:

If I am correct, a team name will mean any payment due under the Concord agreement will not be paid, I wonder where that puts Renault/Alpine

We don't know enough about the agreement and clauses. Same parent company though is there is no material change in ownership?

Correct. The owners of the company have changed, but it's that same company that continues to field their F1 team entry. No change.

I believe they can't change the team entry name mid season without losing points/payment unless they're granted special permission. At least, that was what scuppered stroll & co when FI became RPFI to get around a rights issue and they lost all their points and £££

It's nothing to do with the name change. Teams change their names all the time without losing payments. The F1 entry and the payments linked to it are tied to the registered company that holds that entry, which is often a separate holding company from the operating team. The team can call itself whatever it wants, but a name change requires unanimous agreement of all the other teams.

The issue for Stroll was in the way he acquired the team meant that he had to create a new company with a new F1 entry, only buying the physical assets of Force India, but not their F1 entry. He couldn't acquire the company that owned the Force India F1 entry because it was tied up in the courts and technically insolvent. This is why Haas was so upset, because they took over the Force India payments, whereas they should have had to wait three years to be eligible to receive payments because they were technically a brand new team entry.

[vaud]

thegreenhell said:

It's nothing to do with the name change. Teams change their names all the time without losing payments. The F1 entry and the payments linked to it are tied to the registered company that holds that entry, which is often a separate holding company from the operating team. The team can call itself whatever it wants, but a name change requires unanimous agreement of all the other teams.

A name change did require unanimous agreement - or is it just a super majority now as part of the governance changes?

[TheDeuce]

thegreenhell said:

TheDeuce said:

vaud said:

CallMeLegend said:

If I am correct, a team name will mean any payment due under the Concord agreement will not be paid, I wonder where that puts Renault/Alpine

We don't know enough about the agreement and clauses. Same parent company though is there is no material change in ownership?

Correct. The owners of the company have changed, but it's that same company that continues to field their F1 team entry. No change.

I believe they can't change the team entry name mid season without losing points/payment unless they're granted special permission. At least, that was what scuppered stroll & co when FI became RPFI to get around a rights issue and they lost all their points and £££

It's nothing to do with the name change. Teams change their names all the time without losing payments. The F1 entry and the payments linked to it are tied to the registered company that holds that entry, which is often a separate holding company from the operating team. The team can call itself whatever it wants, but a name change requires unanimous agreement of all the other teams.

The issue for Stroll was in the way he acquired the team meant that he had to create a new company with a new F1 entry, only buying the physical assets of Force India, but not their F1 entry. He couldn't acquire the company that owned the Force India F1 entry because it was tied up in the courts and technically insolvent. This is why Haas was so upset, because they took over the Force India payments, whereas they should have had to wait three years to be eligible to receive payments because they were technically a brand new team entry.

Thanks - makes sense. I was mixing rules then..

Yet oddly RPFI did keep the old teams tally of used components... go figure.

[C Lee Farquar]

thegreenhell said:

The issue for Stroll was in the way he acquired the team meant that he had to create a new company with a new F1 entry, only buying the physical assets of Force India, but not their F1 entry. He couldn't acquire the company that owned the Force India F1 entry because it was tied up in the courts and technically insolvent. This is why Haas was so upset, because they took over the Force India payments, whereas they should have had to wait three years to be eligible to receive payments because they were technically a brand new team entry.

Yes, Force India was liquidated. I understand the new Company had to underwrite the debts.

[Teddy Lop]

So who's (acting) team principle at Williams currently then?

[Smollet]

Teddy Lop said:

So who's (acting) team principle at Williams currently then?

Simon Roberts is the acting team principal

[rdjohn]

https://the-race.com/formula-1/an-ex-williams-insi...

I missed this back in June, but it sums up all the problems identified elsewhere in this thread

[TheDeuce]

rdjohn said:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/an-ex-williams-insi...

I missed this back in June, but it sums up all the problems identified elsewhere in this thread

I remember reading that ages ago and thinking it was a very decent summary.

Although in more concise terms, the whole story could be explained by saying Frank and Claire were too stubborn and too non commital when it really mattered, when they still had chances to turn their fortunes around. The end of 2015 was perhaps the last chance to raise significant cash and invest in sustaining/raising performance for the future.

As it was, as we know, they just kind of coasted and basically slipped in to a place at which performance slipped, then sponsors ducked out, then budget slipped. Then performance slipped further.. a vicious circle and they dragged it out for several years. Technically it looks (from their financials) that they could probably have dragged it on for another couple of years but it would have been fairly pointless. The team would have lost more talent in that time and sold for less etc etc, I think they eventually were wise to call it quits when they did, and sell up.

I don't see it as a sad story though. Frank built the team from sod all and left with £50m... Enjoyed decades of success, satisfied his passions and gifted his daughter a powerful job role that she must have learned an incredible amount from. God only knows what will happen next to the team and their fortunes - I suppose not a lot that we can see until 2022...

[Cyder]

Did I miss why they’d changed the livery on the front sides of the chassis? It’s gone from white to black recently?

[TheDeuce]

Cyder said:

Did I miss why they’d changed the livery on the front sides of the chassis? It’s gone from white to black recently?

They replaced the red and white with 'Williams' dark blue when they split from Rokit. It looks black but it's actually a very dark blue.

Common assumption is that they had to end things with Rokit in order to package the company for a clean sale. Generally it's easier to sell a team without a commitment to an existing title sponsor as quite often the new owners might have their own brand interests they wish to attach.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

They replaced the red and white with 'Williams' dark blue when they split from Rokit. It looks black but it's actually a very dark blue.

Common assumption is that they had to end things with Rokit in order to package the company for a clean sale. Generally it's easier to sell a team without a commitment to an existing title sponsor as quite often the new owners might have their own brand interests they wish to attach.

There were reports that Rokit owed Williams £10 million.

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

TheDeuce said:

They replaced the red and white with 'Williams' dark blue when they split from Rokit. It looks black but it's actually a very dark blue.

Common assumption is that they had to end things with Rokit in order to package the company for a clean sale. Generally it's easier to sell a team without a commitment to an existing title sponsor as quite often the new owners might have their own brand interests they wish to attach.

There were reports that Rokit owed Williams £10 million.

Was that a serious story though? Or it just so happened that at around the time Williams had a break clause they could exercise, Rokit were £10m due in their staged payments? I recall when Stroll owed them some money which was actually 'late' Claire was pretty vocal about it.. By contrast there was just radio silence about whatever happened with Rokit.

Granted a lot happened in a very short space of time for Williams this year, hardly surprising not much details exists about a lot of it.

[Sandpit Steve]

C Lee Farquar said:

thegreenhell said:

The issue for Stroll was in the way he acquired the team meant that he had to create a new company with a new F1 entry, only buying the physical assets of Force India, but not their F1 entry. He couldn't acquire the company that owned the Force India F1 entry because it was tied up in the courts and technically insolvent. This is why Haas was so upset, because they took over the Force India payments, whereas they should have had to wait three years to be eligible to receive payments because they were technically a brand new team entry.

Yes, Force India was liquidated. I understand the new Company had to underwrite the debts.

That was a very complicated deal, with the key asset of the F1 entry moved to a separate company, the existing FI debts settled and the new entity started up in such a way that the Indians got precisely nothing for their shares - despite the costs of the deal being very close to their original £200m asking price for the team.

Awesome trolling by Stroll and the investors, playing Malliya and Roy at their own game.

[sgtBerbatov]

rdjohn said:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/an-ex-williams-insi...

I missed this back in June, but it sums up all the problems identified elsewhere in this thread

Sick of the talk of the "what ifs" with BMW. We saw what happened to Sauber with BMW, does anyone think that wouldn't have happened with Williams?

[ajprice]

Increased technical partnership with Mercedes will get Williams the Merc gearbox and hydraulics for 2022 as transferable components. No mention of whether George Russell is a transferable component to Mercedes in exchange
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2021/01/merc...

[TheDeuce]

ajprice said:

Increased technical partnership with Mercedes will get Williams the Merc gearbox and hydraulics for 2022 as transferable components. No mention of whether George Russell is a transferable component to Mercedes in exchange
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2021/01/merc...

That was predictable and indeed predicted endlessly since the takeover.

Makes complete sense to me. It does mean we have to accept that Williams will no longer be a 'true constructor' in the traditional sense... But I think pretty much everyone accepted that a while back. It's not as if it was working for the team as it was so...

This is potentially terrible news for Haas. The one team they could battle with just became 50% more championship winning Mercedes...