Discussion
ajprice said:
Increased technical partnership with Mercedes will get Williams the Merc gearbox and hydraulics for 2022 as transferable components. No mention of whether George Russell is a transferable component to Mercedes in exchange 
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2021/01/merc...
Thank God. Common sense at last.https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2021/01/merc...
thegreenhell said:
Lots of redundancies coming at Williams then.
Pretty much what I said on the silly season thread just before Christmas in the discussion about Capito.stemll said:
They need money and they need names who know what to spend it on. Williams will surely move to buying more parts rather than making their own, that cost cannot be justified any more.
Sadly I don't see how that can mean anything other than significant redundancies at the team over the winter.
Pleased to see them buying the parts but sadly it must mean redundancies in their manufacturing.Sadly I don't see how that can mean anything other than significant redundancies at the team over the winter.
ajprice said:
Increased technical partnership with Mercedes will get Williams the Merc gearbox and hydraulics for 2022 as transferable components. No mention of whether George Russell is a transferable component to Mercedes in exchange
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2021/01/merc...
Williams should have done this years ago, I appreciate that it wasn't how Frank wanted to go racing but if they buy everything they can from Mercedes, hopefully it frees up some money to be put into more important things to get them off the bottom of the grid.https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2021/01/merc...
TheDeuce said:
That was predictable and indeed predicted endlessly since the takeover.
Makes complete sense to me. It does mean we have to accept that Williams will no longer be a 'true constructor' in the traditional sense... But I think pretty much everyone accepted that a while back. It's not as if it was working for the team as it was so...
This is potentially terrible news for Haas. The one team they could battle with just became 50% more championship winning Mercedes...
I'll bite, despite saying i wouldn't. Makes complete sense to me. It does mean we have to accept that Williams will no longer be a 'true constructor' in the traditional sense... But I think pretty much everyone accepted that a while back. It's not as if it was working for the team as it was so...
This is potentially terrible news for Haas. The one team they could battle with just became 50% more championship winning Mercedes...
Teams have always used other suppliers for major components, your concept of "true constructor" is absurd.
The gearbox is one of the most bought in components in F1 history, along with the engine and brakes. You would be hard pressed to find a car from the mid 60's onwards that didn't use a bought in gearbox, it was the norm until the 90's, but even then most teams designed the gearbox but external manufacturers like Xtrac and Hewland made the parts. Even Formula E current cars use boxes made by Hewland.
One of the most famous McLaren's, the first carbon tub F1 car, the MP4/1 used a Tyrrell gearbox. That was a bespoke casing made for the Tyrrell 011 by Hewland and used all Hewland manufactured internals.
jsf said:
TheDeuce said:
That was predictable and indeed predicted endlessly since the takeover.
Makes complete sense to me. It does mean we have to accept that Williams will no longer be a 'true constructor' in the traditional sense... But I think pretty much everyone accepted that a while back. It's not as if it was working for the team as it was so...
This is potentially terrible news for Haas. The one team they could battle with just became 50% more championship winning Mercedes...
I'll bite, despite saying i wouldn't. Makes complete sense to me. It does mean we have to accept that Williams will no longer be a 'true constructor' in the traditional sense... But I think pretty much everyone accepted that a while back. It's not as if it was working for the team as it was so...
This is potentially terrible news for Haas. The one team they could battle with just became 50% more championship winning Mercedes...
Teams have always used other suppliers for major components, your concept of "true constructor" is absurd.
The gearbox is one of the most bought in components in F1 history, along with the engine and brakes. You would be hard pressed to find a car from the mid 60's onwards that didn't use a bought in gearbox, it was the norm until the 90's, but even then most teams designed the gearbox but external manufacturers like Xtrac and Hewland made the parts. Even Formula E current cars use boxes made by Hewland.
One of the most famous McLaren's, the first carbon tub F1 car, the MP4/1 used a Tyrrell gearbox. That was a bespoke casing made for the Tyrrell 011 by Hewland and used all Hewland manufactured internals.
Williams made their own gearboxes up to this point. Sure, some components will be bought in but that's true of all machines if you take it down to a nut and bolt level.
I suppose it's best summed up as "Williams designed as much of their 2020 car as we only normally see nowadays from the top teams - despite having the budget of the lower teams" - I thought "true constructor in the traditional sense" was a little snappier. The absurd thing is that they clearly didn't have the resources to do it that way and be competitive, yet they stubbornly stuck to that 'more traditional' approach anyway.
They crucially didn't want to be seen as a Mercedes b-team so didn't want to take any Merc parts that they couldn't design and build themselves, or have supplied to them as a bespoke solution for their design.
Every Williams i have worked on, and there have been loads, had a bought in gearbox.
Their insistence on using their own in house manufacture was a relatively new thing when they thought they could build in an advantage by using a different construction technique. It has been an expensive folly.
Their insistence on using their own in house manufacture was a relatively new thing when they thought they could build in an advantage by using a different construction technique. It has been an expensive folly.
jsf said:
Every Williams i have worked on, and there have been loads, had a bought in gearbox.
Their insistence on using their own in house manufacture was a relatively new thing when they thought they could build in an advantage by using a different construction technique. It has been an expensive folly.
Really? Adrian Newey's book suggests that one thing Patrick Head was keen on was designing the gearboxes himself.Their insistence on using their own in house manufacture was a relatively new thing when they thought they could build in an advantage by using a different construction technique. It has been an expensive folly.
carl_w said:
Really? Adrian Newey's book suggests that one thing Patrick Head was keen on was designing the gearboxes himself.
Indeed, they designed the box, but it wasn't made in house.It was a bloody pain in the arse when running a few Williams which had a very similar box, but with minor changes between an A/B/C spec. He liked tinkering.
TheDeuce said:
Your arguing about how I phrased it - How would you phrase it? It's only absurd if you take it literally - I was simply trying to explain the philosophy that Frank and Claire clung on to.
Williams made their own gearboxes up to this point. Sure, some components will be bought in but that's true of all machines if you take it down to a nut and bolt level.
I suppose it's best summed up as "Williams designed as much of their 2020 car as we only normally see nowadays from the top teams - despite having the budget of the lower teams" - I thought "true constructor in the traditional sense" was a little snappier. The absurd thing is that they clearly didn't have the resources to do it that way and be competitive, yet they stubbornly stuck to that 'more traditional' approach anyway.
They crucially didn't want to be seen as a Mercedes b-team so didn't want to take any Merc parts that they couldn't design and build themselves, or have supplied to them as a bespoke solution for their design.
a race team, one that wants to win or at least challenge those in-class, uses the best component available within budget and legal. Mostly. Pick your fights, just the same as you dont lose time trying to prove a point stopping a front runner passing you, if it'll screw your strat. I just dunno wtf Williams have been playing at these last few years but their position reflects it.Williams made their own gearboxes up to this point. Sure, some components will be bought in but that's true of all machines if you take it down to a nut and bolt level.
I suppose it's best summed up as "Williams designed as much of their 2020 car as we only normally see nowadays from the top teams - despite having the budget of the lower teams" - I thought "true constructor in the traditional sense" was a little snappier. The absurd thing is that they clearly didn't have the resources to do it that way and be competitive, yet they stubbornly stuck to that 'more traditional' approach anyway.
They crucially didn't want to be seen as a Mercedes b-team so didn't want to take any Merc parts that they couldn't design and build themselves, or have supplied to them as a bespoke solution for their design.
Teddy Lop said:
TheDeuce said:
Your arguing about how I phrased it - How would you phrase it? It's only absurd if you take it literally - I was simply trying to explain the philosophy that Frank and Claire clung on to.
Williams made their own gearboxes up to this point. Sure, some components will be bought in but that's true of all machines if you take it down to a nut and bolt level.
I suppose it's best summed up as "Williams designed as much of their 2020 car as we only normally see nowadays from the top teams - despite having the budget of the lower teams" - I thought "true constructor in the traditional sense" was a little snappier. The absurd thing is that they clearly didn't have the resources to do it that way and be competitive, yet they stubbornly stuck to that 'more traditional' approach anyway.
They crucially didn't want to be seen as a Mercedes b-team so didn't want to take any Merc parts that they couldn't design and build themselves, or have supplied to them as a bespoke solution for their design.
a race team, one that wants to win or at least challenge those in-class, uses the best component available within budget and legal. Mostly. Pick your fights, just the same as you dont lose time trying to prove a point stopping a front runner passing you, if it'll screw your strat. I just dunno wtf Williams have been playing at these last few years but their position reflects it.Williams made their own gearboxes up to this point. Sure, some components will be bought in but that's true of all machines if you take it down to a nut and bolt level.
I suppose it's best summed up as "Williams designed as much of their 2020 car as we only normally see nowadays from the top teams - despite having the budget of the lower teams" - I thought "true constructor in the traditional sense" was a little snappier. The absurd thing is that they clearly didn't have the resources to do it that way and be competitive, yet they stubbornly stuck to that 'more traditional' approach anyway.
They crucially didn't want to be seen as a Mercedes b-team so didn't want to take any Merc parts that they couldn't design and build themselves, or have supplied to them as a bespoke solution for their design.
Yes, it was pretty dumb.
jsf said:
carl_w said:
Really? Adrian Newey's book suggests that one thing Patrick Head was keen on was designing the gearboxes himself.
Indeed, they designed the box, but it wasn't made in house.It was a bloody pain in the arse when running a few Williams which had a very similar box, but with minor changes between an A/B/C spec. He liked tinkering.
I honestly don't know where you're coming from on this point. The only relevant point is that they refused buying in other teams solutions - that's what marked the difference in their approach compared to several other teams with a similar budget that buy in whatever they can and then left the Williams for dead.
I see Umbro are partnering with Williams soon, as I went on to the website to see about getting a face mask.
If you suffer from epilepsy then you'd be as well to stay away. I don't suffer myself but I definitely got a pain in my head from the video.
It may also mean some of the current stock might be put on to a firesale, a bit like what happened when Martini left.
If you suffer from epilepsy then you'd be as well to stay away. I don't suffer myself but I definitely got a pain in my head from the video.
It may also mean some of the current stock might be put on to a firesale, a bit like what happened when Martini left.
Not sure how accurate this can be
https://www.planetf1.com/news/williams-alpine-juni...
given that they have signed a deal to use more Mercedes parts like the gearbox from 2022.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/williams-alpine-juni...
given that they have signed a deal to use more Mercedes parts like the gearbox from 2022.
stemll said:
Not sure how accurate this can be
https://www.planetf1.com/news/williams-alpine-juni...
given that they have signed a deal to use more Mercedes parts like the gearbox from 2022.
Most of the article seems to be more about collaborating on the driver academy side, which the Renault guy says wouldn't necessarily rely on having an engine supply deal in place, but then they just threw in an uncorroborated line about switching to Renault engines from nowhere at the end.https://www.planetf1.com/news/williams-alpine-juni...
given that they have signed a deal to use more Mercedes parts like the gearbox from 2022.
I suppose it would make some sense for both, but someone would have to pay Mercedes a lot of $ to break the existing supply contract four years early.
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