Discussion
I think that we need to remember that WIlliams are listed on the Market in Frankfurt(?) so there must be some more formal rules about what they can get away with rather than say someone like Force India who could play pretty fast and wide with that sort of stuff when they were being "bankrolled" by Vijay.
Also I assume that if they needed to then they could go to market to get an investment of cash rather than see the whole lot tumbling down into something worth nothing.
Also I assume that if they needed to then they could go to market to get an investment of cash rather than see the whole lot tumbling down into something worth nothing.
n3il123 said:
I think that we need to remember that WIlliams are listed on the Market in Frankfurt(?) so there must be some more formal rules about what they can get away with rather than say someone like Force India who could play pretty fast and wide with that sort of stuff when they were being "bankrolled" by Vijay.
Also I assume that if they needed to then they could go to market to get an investment of cash rather than see the whole lot tumbling down into something worth nothing.
It's almost irrelevant, whatever is going on. It might have shafted their 2018 season but a lot of people have a genuine interest in seeing Williams survive in some form or another. There has to be a minimum of ten teams each season so the money to prop them up will always present itself somehow I'm sure.Also I assume that if they needed to then they could go to market to get an investment of cash rather than see the whole lot tumbling down into something worth nothing.
Beyond 2021 with the budget caps coming in other teams might enter the sport though. So Williams aren't invincible forever.
I'm thinking they'll sell in the next few years anyway. It's well passed time.
TheDeuce said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
It was more conjecture but the podcast also made mention of Kubica’s money not coming through on time (is he telling his backers it’s not worth it? He’s been very negative in the press about it) and also the Stolls playing hardball about paying out to Williams what they owe (to get lance out of his contract).
Now, of course we have no way of knowing if this is true-but didn’t Williams block RP/FI from retaining their championship points last season after they went bust?
If so, and they knew they were relying on the new owners of that team on bailing them out with the cash out clause it might have been a bit of a stupid move. To say the least.
Are the Strolls put a strangle on Williams for what they did last season?
This is why is said cashflow maybe more an issue than outright budget.Now, of course we have no way of knowing if this is true-but didn’t Williams block RP/FI from retaining their championship points last season after they went bust?
If so, and they knew they were relying on the new owners of that team on bailing them out with the cash out clause it might have been a bit of a stupid move. To say the least.
Are the Strolls put a strangle on Williams for what they did last season?
The situation could be vastly more complex than we can make out but in F1 you can almost guarantee there is more going on behind the scenes than we can make sense of. Having an investor also support your rivals isn't ideal.
Well I say rivals... I'm pretty sure rpfi don't see Williams as a threat at all.
Would one team like to be seen favourably by their supplier over the other? I'd say so, especially when each team really need that engine in the back of their cars.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
You don't think so? I would think every single team in the paddock sees each other as a threat, things can change pretty quickly F1 and both RP/FI and Williams are Mercedes supplied teams.
Would one team like to be seen favourably by their supplier over the other? I'd say so, especially when each team really need that engine in the back of their cars.
No Merc wouldn't be happy to supply both teams regardless, as niether team is a threat to Merc! Would one team like to be seen favourably by their supplier over the other? I'd say so, especially when each team really need that engine in the back of their cars.
Of course I understand that things can change, there can be surprises. But rpfi have been fairly strong and there is no reason to see that change dramatically this season. The same cannot be said of Williams. You have to get within a couple of tenths of another teams pace worry them, and the lack of testing alone makes it hard to believe Williams are going to be that close to anyone, certainly not until deep enough into the season for it to be too late to play catch up.
And that's without factoring in that whatever caused the problems so far is still unresolved so likely to hamper them ongoing.
I genuinely dont think rpfi see them as a concern at all. They have far more likely battles to plan for.
TheDeuce said:
n3il123 said:
I think that we need to remember that WIlliams are listed on the Market in Frankfurt(?) so there must be some more formal rules about what they can get away with rather than say someone like Force India who could play pretty fast and wide with that sort of stuff when they were being "bankrolled" by Vijay.
Also I assume that if they needed to then they could go to market to get an investment of cash rather than see the whole lot tumbling down into something worth nothing.
It's almost irrelevant, whatever is going on. It might have shafted their 2018 season but a lot of people have a genuine interest in seeing Williams survive in some form or another. There has to be a minimum of ten teams each season so the money to prop them up will always present itself somehow I'm sure.Also I assume that if they needed to then they could go to market to get an investment of cash rather than see the whole lot tumbling down into something worth nothing.
Beyond 2021 with the budget caps coming in other teams might enter the sport though. So Williams aren't invincible forever.
I'm thinking they'll sell in the next few years anyway. It's well passed time.
TheDeuce said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
You don't think so? I would think every single team in the paddock sees each other as a threat, things can change pretty quickly F1 and both RP/FI and Williams are Mercedes supplied teams.
Would one team like to be seen favourably by their supplier over the other? I'd say so, especially when each team really need that engine in the back of their cars.
No Merc wouldn't be happy to supply both teams regardless, as niether team is a threat to Merc! Would one team like to be seen favourably by their supplier over the other? I'd say so, especially when each team really need that engine in the back of their cars.
Of course I understand that things can change, there can be surprises. But rpfi have been fairly strong and there is no reason to see that change dramatically this season. The same cannot be said of Williams. You have to get within a couple of tenths of another teams pace worry them, and the lack of testing alone makes it hard to believe Williams are going to be that close to anyone, certainly not until deep enough into the season for it to be too late to play catch up.
And that's without factoring in that whatever caused the problems so far is still unresolved so likely to hamper them ongoing.
I genuinely dont think rpfi see them as a concern at all. They have far more likely battles to plan for.
I know it's a cliche to call it the piranha club but it's emphatically true, each separate business has an interest in seeing their competitors fail as it can only mean more success (and money) for themselves.
You think people didn't see Sauber as a threat the other year? There they were, trending around at the back with hardly any money and too many pay drivers. In a couple of years they're now looking like fighting Renault, McLaren, Racing Point, Torro Rosso and in doing so talking a load of points off them. Some are tipping them to be even better.
RPFI will undoubtably see Williams as a rival. CW might have said "not on my watch" to being a Mercedes B Team but what if they were, you think RPFI would see any of those secrets from Mercedes if it would put them above their friends?
skwdenyer said:
They might want to sell, but if they run out of money then - RPFI-style - the team might be available to "buy" without the family receiving anything very much for it. Just because money can be found "in the end" doesn't mean it can be found when needed...
Well exactly. I didn't suggest anyone wanted them to have the money at the right time to help them compete in a healthy way, just that the money probably would come if the only other option was for them to fold.I'm sure too the money would come with conditions, such as some of Frank's shares... One way or another the more money has to be found to prop them up, the less independent control of their destiny and direction they really have.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I see that as a naive view honesty (without trying to sound harsh by the way).
I know it's a cliche to call it the piranha club but it's emphatically true, each separate business has an interest in seeing their competitors fail as it can only mean more success (and money) for themselves.
You think people didn't see Sauber as a threat the other year? There they were, trending around at the back with hardly any money and too many pay drivers. In a couple of years they're now looking like fighting Renault, McLaren, Racing Point, Torro Rosso and in doing so talking a load of points off them. Some are tipping them to be even better.
RPFI will undoubtably see Williams as a rival. CW might have said "not on my watch" to being a Mercedes B Team but what if they were, you think RPFI would see any of those secrets from Mercedes if it would put them above their friends?
I think we're at crossed purposes. When I say they don't see Williams as a threat I mean in the present, as Williams have already screwed their 2019 season. I know it's a cliche to call it the piranha club but it's emphatically true, each separate business has an interest in seeing their competitors fail as it can only mean more success (and money) for themselves.
You think people didn't see Sauber as a threat the other year? There they were, trending around at the back with hardly any money and too many pay drivers. In a couple of years they're now looking like fighting Renault, McLaren, Racing Point, Torro Rosso and in doing so talking a load of points off them. Some are tipping them to be even better.
RPFI will undoubtably see Williams as a rival. CW might have said "not on my watch" to being a Mercedes B Team but what if they were, you think RPFI would see any of those secrets from Mercedes if it would put them above their friends?
That's not to say I don't think rpfi wouldnt kick them while their down, and that might be just what is happening if stroll is keeping money back from Williams to hinder them, whilst also paying into rpfi for his sons seat.
What's interesting, in respect of your point about sauber.. is that if Williams are kicked too much when they're already down, they could well be forced to sell and then the other teams would have a whole new competitor with who knows how much investment behind them. But as it is, Williams can effectively be kept semi concsious yet pinned to the floor by a number of people if it suites their causes.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Now, of course we have no way of knowing if this is true-but didn’t Williams block RP/FI from retaining their championship points last season after they went bust?
and were most vocal blocking them having an emergency loan to survive.And were from memory the first team to break rank in the teams strike when spanky tried to destroy F1
Remind me how much their historical payment is again, good luck begging from teams that don't enjoy this unfair advantage chaps, there's always gofundme.
HustleRussell said:
If they really are scrounging the paddock for parts then I hope they’re receiving a similar reception to that which they have repeatedly dished out to other teams which have fallen on troubled times over the years.
Williams have lived by the sword and if they are to die I hope they die by the sword rather than prolonging this undignified wailing writhing slow death.
Of course I hope they turn it around but I no longer have faith that they can do this without a wildfire reset of their entire ecosystem.
Didn't a few of us on here last year say William's were playing a dangerous game when it came to Force India getting their prize money early to survive until the sale and they were the only team to stop it happening. Williams have lived by the sword and if they are to die I hope they die by the sword rather than prolonging this undignified wailing writhing slow death.
Of course I hope they turn it around but I no longer have faith that they can do this without a wildfire reset of their entire ecosystem.
TheDeuce said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I see that as a naive view honesty (without trying to sound harsh by the way).
I know it's a cliche to call it the piranha club but it's emphatically true, each separate business has an interest in seeing their competitors fail as it can only mean more success (and money) for themselves.
You think people didn't see Sauber as a threat the other year? There they were, trending around at the back with hardly any money and too many pay drivers. In a couple of years they're now looking like fighting Renault, McLaren, Racing Point, Torro Rosso and in doing so talking a load of points off them. Some are tipping them to be even better.
RPFI will undoubtably see Williams as a rival. CW might have said "not on my watch" to being a Mercedes B Team but what if they were, you think RPFI would see any of those secrets from Mercedes if it would put them above their friends?
I think we're at crossed purposes. When I say they don't see Williams as a threat I mean in the present, as Williams have already screwed their 2019 season. I know it's a cliche to call it the piranha club but it's emphatically true, each separate business has an interest in seeing their competitors fail as it can only mean more success (and money) for themselves.
You think people didn't see Sauber as a threat the other year? There they were, trending around at the back with hardly any money and too many pay drivers. In a couple of years they're now looking like fighting Renault, McLaren, Racing Point, Torro Rosso and in doing so talking a load of points off them. Some are tipping them to be even better.
RPFI will undoubtably see Williams as a rival. CW might have said "not on my watch" to being a Mercedes B Team but what if they were, you think RPFI would see any of those secrets from Mercedes if it would put them above their friends?
That's not to say I don't think rpfi wouldnt kick them while their down, and that might be just what is happening if stroll is keeping money back from Williams to hinder them, whilst also paying into rpfi for his sons seat.
What's interesting, in respect of your point about sauber.. is that if Williams are kicked too much when they're already down, they could well be forced to sell and then the other teams would have a whole new competitor with who knows how much investment behind them. But as it is, Williams can effectively be kept semi concsious yet pinned to the floor by a number of people if it suites their causes.
What a fascinating sport we follow
For clarity, I hold no love for Williams at all. I was a McLaren fan through and through when they were in their pomp and besides that I hold no particular respect for FW and the way he did business. Huge respect for his triumph over his condition but that's about it.
DanielSan said:
Didn't a few of us on here last year say William's were playing a dangerous game when it came to Force India getting their prize money early to survive until the sale and they were the only team to stop it happening.
Earlier I said force India probably werent feeling threatened by Williams this season. But let's flip that and look at what Williams must have been feeling about force India last year. If you take the Williams history out of the equation they're roughly comparable to force india, yet force India were managing more with less.So it might not be surprising that they stuck the dagger in where possible. Although nobbling one team they can't beat wouldn't actually get them anywhere as they also can't beat all the other teams.
Hopefully they can drift through this year and set a realistic target for 2nd/3rd next year. I think if the target was realistic and they achieve it, just maybe the team might start to reunite and dig a little deeper moving forwards.
I do worry though that with them only raising embarrassing headlines that will deter sponsors, they're now so dependant on seat selling and outside investment, that they already lack control of their future. Are they now an F1 pawn more than a competitive force?
LaurasOtherHalf said:
It's so interesting isn't it? Our crossed purposes though yes I get you-but it's probably no point in thinking about Williams being a threat in 2019-all their competitors will be watching the moves everyone else is making for next year and beyond.
What a fascinating sport we follow
For clarity, I hold no love for Williams at all. I was a McLaren fan through and through when they were in their pomp and besides that I hold no particular respect for FW and the way he did business. Huge respect for his triumph over his condition but that's about it.
It is facsinating. The more detail you pay attention to the more you appreciate the results on track and what drives them.What a fascinating sport we follow
For clarity, I hold no love for Williams at all. I was a McLaren fan through and through when they were in their pomp and besides that I hold no particular respect for FW and the way he did business. Huge respect for his triumph over his condition but that's about it.
I have no team loyalty as such. I do quite like that Mercedes are a manufacturer of affordable road cars that have the same marque on track, and I think they're run almost faultlessly but that's more me being respectful of hard work than outright passion.. I'm more a fan of some drivers, and the sport in general.
With Williams my hope is that they can reinvent themselves as it would be great to keep such an old team in the sport, and them be relevant, and of course British. I'm not often patriotic these days but it's my favourite sport, so it would be good to see Williams beat the odds with some real out of the blue thinking and innovation and do well again. History and reality suggest they're about to fail and sell the team&name at some point, but it's a good solid British story if they miraculously find a way out of this current rut.
Sadly I'm mostly a logical person and I think they've ended up being owned and controlled by others, even before they're officially owned by someone else. I think the current poor results are pretty much down to a conflict between the guys paying, and the views of the family when it comes to how things should be done. I don't think compromise solutions really work in F1
skwdenyer said:
In other news, there's a reasonably well-sourced suggestion in the air that Paddy Lowe is seeking a rather substantial payout connected with his departure...
I'll be interested to see how anyone can leave for 'personal reasons' and then claim the dismissal deserves a payout.Gardening leave perhaps.. if simply to stop him getting too honest about whatever really went on.
TheDeuce said:
skwdenyer said:
In other news, there's a reasonably well-sourced suggestion in the air that Paddy Lowe is seeking a rather substantial payout connected with his departure...
I'll be interested to see how anyone can leave for 'personal reasons' and then claim the dismissal deserves a payout.Gardening leave perhaps.. if simply to stop him getting too honest about whatever really went on.
TheDeuce said:
Petrus1983 said:
Only the team have said he left for personal reasons. He may see differently.
I did wonder as I typed if that was the case. But I figured he would have disputed what the team said if it wasn't an agreed statement.He hasn't disputed it.. make of that what you will.
Petrus1983 said:
TheDeuce said:
Petrus1983 said:
Only the team have said he left for personal reasons. He may see differently.
I did wonder as I typed if that was the case. But I figured he would have disputed what the team said if it wasn't an agreed statement.He hasn't disputed it.. make of that what you will.
So, a leave of absence while the lawyers work out how the actual dismissal/termination can be done in the least expensive way.
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