Discussion
rallycross said:
If that's true and something is likely to fail before reaching race distance that's a very scary situation at a circuit like this with high speeds and concrete walls all around the circuit...
I don't think it's likely to fail, they know about it, have done since Barcelona. They can adjust pace to compensate for wear.If significant wear did occur during the race, it would affect the characteristics of the car and I'm sure they could see trends of that via telemetry, or the driver.
There is failing, and then there is instantaneous failure. Just got to avoid the latter. Which I think is pretty much what they have been doing since they rolled the car out in Barcelona.
Edited by TheDeuce on Saturday 16th March 15:16
thegreenhell said:
he sounded pretty cheesed off too, given he must already be prepared to expect 19th at best something else has really wound him up it seems.Teddy Lop said:
he sounded pretty cheesed off too, given he must already be prepared to expect 19th at best something else has really wound him up it seems.
Anyone would be. Imagine having to traipse around the planet just to publicly fail each time you turn up at work. And then imagine your boss tells you it's going to be like that until the middle of the year at best.TheDeuce said:
rallycross said:
If that's true and something is likely to fail before reaching race distance that's a very scary situation at a circuit like this with high speeds and concrete walls all around the circuit...
I don't think it's likely to fail, they know about it, have done since Barcelona. They can adjust pace to compensate for wear.If significant wear did occur during the race, it would affect the characteristics of the car and I'm sure they could see trends of that via telemetry, or the driver.
There is failing, and then there is instantaneous failure. Just got to avoid the latter. Which I think is pretty much what they have been doing since they rolled the car out in Barcelona.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 16th March 15:16
tux said:
Is it not possible with a huge amount of work that they could just take last years car and fit the new aero parts?
That was also fundamentally flawed.. 
This one was supposed to be the start of a better platform.I know, it's crazy.. almost beyond belief.
They just need to properly finish the current car.
thegreenhell said:
This could literally be a copy and paste from last year, the team is a f
king shambles. I don't get any the press are happy to keep blaming everything on every other person that comes and goes to the team, the buck stops in one place and one place only, Claire Williams' door. The revolving cycle of s
t happens no matter whose in charge of and who works in what department. There's only one person and position that hasn't changed...I suspect it’s a little too simplistic to say it’s all Claire’s fault.
Whilst I certainly subscribe to the view that she’s likely to be out of her depth running the F1 team, the shareholding nature and construct of the entire operation means that flipping her out won’t just cover it.
We’ve all gone round and round the key - likely - matters of why Williams seems to be a relative basket case compared to its heyday but a couple of things might be better to highlight.
If you’re going to blame Claire, then old Frank needs a blast too. He’s the majority shareholder, and as majority shareholder, and assuming he’s still compos mentis, then he and his daughter are jointly accountable. He, for expressing approval via his proxy (Claire), and she for perhaps not pushing the old boy into realising that things might need to change and soon.
Additionally if the concept of the ‘silver bullet’ ceo or boss is not normally seen as ultimately healthy for any company on the downswing, then shunting Claire out by itself and replacing her with some fancy type (a la Zak Brown) won’t help. Very few individual appointments ever are responsible for solely turning around companies or teams. Recognising that there are likely deep structural issues in the F1 operation and then remodelling your structure to defeat those roadblocks is better. And if that means Claire should go then so be it.
In reality - the family - plural, is holding the thing back. And if the family wants to retain significant ownership and run it into the ground, avoid greater external or internal investment/involvement and try and “race” as long as he’s alive, then that’s that.
My guess: someone like Hollinger, a person with a reasonable shareholding bite, would either be pushing gently, or thinking of pushing for some external consultancy to point out some facts of life to everyone at Williams, because it’s not like turkeys vote for Christmas or anything.
Family money and companies very rarely pass successfully beyond the generations. If it’s not idiot sons or widows frittering it away with some Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, inter generational wealth disappears quicker that most animal species.
Whilst I certainly subscribe to the view that she’s likely to be out of her depth running the F1 team, the shareholding nature and construct of the entire operation means that flipping her out won’t just cover it.
We’ve all gone round and round the key - likely - matters of why Williams seems to be a relative basket case compared to its heyday but a couple of things might be better to highlight.
If you’re going to blame Claire, then old Frank needs a blast too. He’s the majority shareholder, and as majority shareholder, and assuming he’s still compos mentis, then he and his daughter are jointly accountable. He, for expressing approval via his proxy (Claire), and she for perhaps not pushing the old boy into realising that things might need to change and soon.
Additionally if the concept of the ‘silver bullet’ ceo or boss is not normally seen as ultimately healthy for any company on the downswing, then shunting Claire out by itself and replacing her with some fancy type (a la Zak Brown) won’t help. Very few individual appointments ever are responsible for solely turning around companies or teams. Recognising that there are likely deep structural issues in the F1 operation and then remodelling your structure to defeat those roadblocks is better. And if that means Claire should go then so be it.
In reality - the family - plural, is holding the thing back. And if the family wants to retain significant ownership and run it into the ground, avoid greater external or internal investment/involvement and try and “race” as long as he’s alive, then that’s that.
My guess: someone like Hollinger, a person with a reasonable shareholding bite, would either be pushing gently, or thinking of pushing for some external consultancy to point out some facts of life to everyone at Williams, because it’s not like turkeys vote for Christmas or anything.
Family money and companies very rarely pass successfully beyond the generations. If it’s not idiot sons or widows frittering it away with some Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, inter generational wealth disappears quicker that most animal species.
CoolHands said:
I think it sounds like bullst anyway. They WISH they had a fundamental flaw as then that would give them something to rectify. More likely, there’s an endless series of problems all interlinked that are too difficult to solve.
I think the flaw is genuine, but it is the result of endless problems that are all to difficult to solve - within the team.t anyway. They WISH they had a fundamental flaw as then that would give them something to rectify. More likely, there’s an endless series of problems all interlinked that are too difficult to solve.tigerkoi said:
I suspect it’s a little too simplistic to say it’s all Claire’s fault.
I’ve got to the point of disagreeing. She’s been there long enough to be in control of things and hold high level management meetings with each heads of departments to ensure things are working to plan. She didn’t take over a failed F1 team, it’s failed under her. And the buck has to stop somewhere - this time, it’s her. tigerkoi said:
I suspect it’s a little too simplistic to say it’s all Claire’s fault.
Whilst I certainly subscribe to the view that she’s likely to be out of her depth running the F1 team, the shareholding nature and construct of the entire operation means that flipping her out won’t just cover it.
We’ve all gone round and round the key - likely - matters of why Williams seems to be a relative basket case compared to its heyday but a couple of things might be better to highlight.
If you’re going to blame Claire, then old Frank needs a blast too. He’s the majority shareholder, and as majority shareholder, and assuming he’s still compos mentis, then he and his daughter are jointly accountable. He, for expressing approval via his proxy (Claire), and she for perhaps not pushing the old boy into realising that things might need to change and soon.
Additionally if the concept of the ‘silver bullet’ ceo or boss is not normally seen as ultimately healthy for any company on the downswing, then shunting Claire out by itself and replacing her with some fancy type (a la Zak Brown) won’t help. Very few individual appointments ever are responsible for solely turning around companies or teams. Recognising that there are likely deep structural issues in the F1 operation and then remodelling your structure to defeat those roadblocks is better. And if that means Claire should go then so be it.
In reality - the family - plural, is holding the thing back. And if the family wants to retain significant ownership and run it into the ground, avoid greater external or internal investment/involvement and try and “race” as long as he’s alive, then that’s that.
My guess: someone like Hollinger, a person with a reasonable shareholding bite, would either be pushing gently, or thinking of pushing for some external consultancy to point out some facts of life to everyone at Williams, because it’s not like turkeys vote for Christmas or anything.
Family money and companies very rarely pass successfully beyond the generations. If it’s not idiot sons or widows frittering it away with some Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, inter generational wealth disappears quicker that most animal species.
That's probably a fair assessment. All the family can do this point fourth, by retaining control, is to erode the future value of the Williams name when they ultimately sell. And they will sell (at least sell enough shares to relinquish control) at some point because it's going to become impossible to convince sponsors in the end. It will be sell or collapse. And collapse would result in administrators coming in to protect the asset, and they would sell in the end anyway.Whilst I certainly subscribe to the view that she’s likely to be out of her depth running the F1 team, the shareholding nature and construct of the entire operation means that flipping her out won’t just cover it.
We’ve all gone round and round the key - likely - matters of why Williams seems to be a relative basket case compared to its heyday but a couple of things might be better to highlight.
If you’re going to blame Claire, then old Frank needs a blast too. He’s the majority shareholder, and as majority shareholder, and assuming he’s still compos mentis, then he and his daughter are jointly accountable. He, for expressing approval via his proxy (Claire), and she for perhaps not pushing the old boy into realising that things might need to change and soon.
Additionally if the concept of the ‘silver bullet’ ceo or boss is not normally seen as ultimately healthy for any company on the downswing, then shunting Claire out by itself and replacing her with some fancy type (a la Zak Brown) won’t help. Very few individual appointments ever are responsible for solely turning around companies or teams. Recognising that there are likely deep structural issues in the F1 operation and then remodelling your structure to defeat those roadblocks is better. And if that means Claire should go then so be it.
In reality - the family - plural, is holding the thing back. And if the family wants to retain significant ownership and run it into the ground, avoid greater external or internal investment/involvement and try and “race” as long as he’s alive, then that’s that.
My guess: someone like Hollinger, a person with a reasonable shareholding bite, would either be pushing gently, or thinking of pushing for some external consultancy to point out some facts of life to everyone at Williams, because it’s not like turkeys vote for Christmas or anything.
Family money and companies very rarely pass successfully beyond the generations. If it’s not idiot sons or widows frittering it away with some Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, inter generational wealth disappears quicker that most animal species.
I think you're right, the current minority shareholders will have considered this all already, and will want to nudge the common sense decision. Tricky topic for them to broach though! I'm sure Frank has a razer sharp ear listening out for any such initiative and would react very badly to it!
Petrus1983 said:
tigerkoi said:
I suspect it’s a little too simplistic to say it’s all Claire’s fault.
I’ve got to the point of disagreeing. She’s been there long enough to be in control of things and hold high level management meetings with each heads of departments to ensure things are working to plan. She didn’t take over a failed F1 team, it’s failed under her. And the buck has to stop somewhere - this time, it’s her. Petrus1983 said:
tigerkoi said:
I suspect it’s a little too simplistic to say it’s all Claire’s fault.
I’ve got to the point of disagreeing. She’s been there long enough to be in control of things and hold high level management meetings with each heads of departments to ensure things are working to plan. She didn’t take over a failed F1 team, it’s failed under her. And the buck has to stop somewhere - this time, it’s her. She’s only there due to the benevolence of her old man, and some dealmaking/offloading by Toto.
Other than that she wouldn’t be there.
I grant you things have seemed much worse since she’s taken over, but it’s not like Williams have been consistently pulling up trees every year since 1997 or anything. It’s been a long decline, and now a bit of a tailspin.
It’s not like we’re too disagreed or anything. I’m merely saying Frank is the bigger issue if *you think about it.
- you, generally, not you, you
For me Williams need a very visible tough egg at the helm. Sir Frank isn't getting any younger and Williams needs some tough firepower at the top to get things moving and importantly give investors and sponsors some confidence.
Claire seems a good lady but it hasn't worked for the team with her holding the visible headship.
Claire seems a good lady but it hasn't worked for the team with her holding the visible headship.
thegreenhell said:
I also read somewhere that she didn't learn of the team's lack of readiness for the first Barcelona test until they should have been packing up the finished car to head to the circuit. I can't imagine Toto or Horner being taken by surprise in such a manner
Which is doubly worrying considering on the F1 podcast she discussed her insane work hours and how little she sees her kid in a week (4 hours). I didn't sense that so much from Toto, work-life balance is really important. Edited by ukaskew on Saturday 16th March 20:15
This threads gone over the CW subject countless times. The conclusion is always the same: lovely woman, in the wrong job.
Frank still has control but he's past it - meant with no disrespect.
It's time for the family to let go, and watch it grow. They can still be shareholders, just not have control. That should be their final gift to the team. I'm sure most employees would agree, although I imagine you don't last long at Williams if you're caught chatting about such things.
Frank still has control but he's past it - meant with no disrespect.
It's time for the family to let go, and watch it grow. They can still be shareholders, just not have control. That should be their final gift to the team. I'm sure most employees would agree, although I imagine you don't last long at Williams if you're caught chatting about such things.
It's very sad to observe.
I watched the documentary about the team that was on the BBC recently; it is a few years old, but that is what makes it depressing - that documentary showed the Williams streaking into the lead at the start of the British Grand Prix. 2014-15 they were a credible outfit. Claire WIlliams was appointed Deputy Team Principal in 2013. The 2014-15 seasons' cars would have been designed the year before they raced. Since that last high point, it's been at best a "steady" decline to being anchored at the very back, now that the likes of Marussia or Caterham are no longer around.
There comes a time in any organisation when changing the operational people has no effect, and at that stage (if you haven't already), you can only look at the layer above as being where the fault lies.
Seeing her soundbite after qualifying today along the lines of "fighting, because that is what Williams do" was annoying. Yes, Williams are known for being pugnacious, but historically it was on the basis of at least being in the fight, due to their engineering excellence.
Their current predicament annoys me! And they're not even my favourite team!
I watched the documentary about the team that was on the BBC recently; it is a few years old, but that is what makes it depressing - that documentary showed the Williams streaking into the lead at the start of the British Grand Prix. 2014-15 they were a credible outfit. Claire WIlliams was appointed Deputy Team Principal in 2013. The 2014-15 seasons' cars would have been designed the year before they raced. Since that last high point, it's been at best a "steady" decline to being anchored at the very back, now that the likes of Marussia or Caterham are no longer around.
There comes a time in any organisation when changing the operational people has no effect, and at that stage (if you haven't already), you can only look at the layer above as being where the fault lies.
Seeing her soundbite after qualifying today along the lines of "fighting, because that is what Williams do" was annoying. Yes, Williams are known for being pugnacious, but historically it was on the basis of at least being in the fight, due to their engineering excellence.
Their current predicament annoys me! And they're not even my favourite team!
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff