Discussion
tigerkoi said:
I’m with your logic.
Like Rockefeller once said, “...you must have a larger ambition.”
Williams is stymied because their short-to-mid term ambition isn’t about achieving anymore, but rather that their competition is dragged down to their level. Betting on a budget cap or Liberty showing they’re anything more than three stooges with marketing plan just telegraphs weakness.
I’d be interested to see if Brad Hollinger becomes more prominent and expressive in the next 18 months or so over preserving shareholder value.
Very well worded. They want to survive, by surviving. But survival in sport requires a plan to win.Like Rockefeller once said, “...you must have a larger ambition.”
Williams is stymied because their short-to-mid term ambition isn’t about achieving anymore, but rather that their competition is dragged down to their level. Betting on a budget cap or Liberty showing they’re anything more than three stooges with marketing plan just telegraphs weakness.
I’d be interested to see if Brad Hollinger becomes more prominent and expressive in the next 18 months or so over preserving shareholder value.
I do wonder if Frank will ever listen to reality though. I get the impression a truly impressive business plan for a new ownership could be shown to him and he wouldn't accept it. Which, I will always say is fair enough, it's his gig.
In the end he has another loyalty though, I don't think he will throw the value in the team away, he would surely want the money from a shares sale for his retirement and for his family. Based on that logic, I think Williams has to hit absolute crisis point before Frank and Claire will consider letting go. This season is a joke but they haven't given up just yet.. I think when they get to a point that their sponsorship revenue becomes inadequate, they will finally start to look at options to back out as a family.
tigerkoi said:
REALIST123 said:
tigerkoi said:
Petrus1983 said:
Genuinely I like her. Weirdly I came from a family business background that I walked away from on the 9th yr of my father saying he’d actually relinquish control and never did - it’s f
king hard as you’re trying to push ahead whilst appeasing the past.
I think she’s probably alright interpersonally and in most interviews seemed to have a residue of EQ that makes her reasonably aware of how things sit in reality.king hard as you’re trying to push ahead whilst appeasing the past. Very interesting what you mention about your own family business: must have been hugely frustrating and tough dynamically.
In round terms, since she ‘took over’ the team have steadily slipped down the table and scored fewer and fewer WCC points. It doesn’t indicate competency.
Since ‘14 when they had a huge advantage over many others, with the MB engine, they’ve gradually fallen behind, well, just about everyone.
All Claire has done is offer platitudes and lobby for budget cuts, which rather misses the point. It's not just about money, it’s sometimes about what you do with the money.
And if you’re being prevented from doing what you should, especially if you know what you should be doing, you should get out as soon as that becomes clear, family business or not.
I’m not sure anyone has ever placed much onus on her ‘likeability’ being indicative of whether she should be in the top spot or not. Read the thread: the vast majority of us think she’s overmatched ability-wise, and have gone round in circles repeating ourselves.
Yes, 2013 was when CW become DTP. Patrick Head ran the technical side until 2012. Until that point, arguably FW (and CW) had never had to worry about technical leadership - that was handled by PH.
Now, PH had stepped away from the TD role in IIRC 2003 or so. His cars usually did very well. His heir apparent was Sam Michael, with PH working on engineering strategy. Sam - like Paddy - had a strong background in systems, data, etc. Sam's cars didn't too well, and when they finally finished 9th in the WCC Sam was toast. That coincided with PH stepping down.
Sam looks to have been promoted way too early, with little to no clear evidence of ability.
Mike Coughlan was brought in (this is all under FW, remember), but did no better and was fired (allegedly). Pat Symonds was brought in, and coincided with the arrival of Mercedes power. Back to back 3rd places in the WCC followed, but then lack of updates (caused by lack of cash?) caused a decline. Symonds left after 2 years (with a glowing reference from CW, apparently at the end of his contract, but who knows?), and Paddy arrived. The rest is history.
What conclusions do we draw from this? Honestly, there's no clear signal that either CW or FW can recruit and support great technical leaders. PH's record speaks for itself, but when he stepped back then things went to pot. One wonders whether Pat Symonds was a lucky hire rather than an inspired one, and whether the team kidded itself that it was great again (as opposed to Pat leading them to greatness).
Perhaps a common thread is this: the shareholders have always taken a good slice out of the team. They've never had a reputation for paying well. One wonders whether somebody of the calibre of Pat Symonds would have worked for them if he hadn't had his unfortunate incident with a crashing Renault. Coughlan similarly was "damaged goods" - again, was his principal virtue cheapness?
Taking a good hard look, however, I see no evidence that anyone other than PH has ever been able to lead the technical side of Williams, and PH clearly couldn't set up a proper succession plan. CW is arguably no worse than her dad here...
Looking at the Netflix thread reminded me of Claire's comment - hoping all the other cars crash in the first corner so they can come though for the win - I was actually quite surprised to hear it, that's the sort of comment I'd make as a child or in jest. I dunno maybe I'm not cutting enough slack for cherry picked comments from someone on a sensationalized fly on the wall docu but it just felt utterly wrong.
Teddy Lop said:
Looking at the Netflix thread reminded me of Claire's comment - hoping all the other cars crash in the first corner so they can come though for the win - I was actually quite surprised to hear it, that's the sort of comment I'd make as a child or in jest. I dunno maybe I'm not cutting enough slack for cherry picked comments from someone on a sensationalized fly on the wall docu but it just felt utterly wrong.
That's the problem with all "reality" tv. They can take something out of context and give it a complete different meaning. FROM this thread;
Lots of aero related vacancies at Williams
16 March, 2019 00:09
http://www.f1network.net/boards/read/s107.htm?110,...
Comment by poster shriekback;
"Man, many of the positions seem to be well-beyond entry-level too.
Either the team is trying to address its recent shortcomings by expanding, or there is a bit of a house-cleaning of the upper levels of various departments (especially aero) going on. My bet would be on the latter.
I suppose we should consider a third alternative--that a significant number of people that were in higher-end positions in the aero dept. have decided of their own accord to leave the team. Let's hope that is not the case."
The link to the Williams job listings – Open Positions
https://www.williamsf1.com/pages/careers/WMR
See attachment for current list of vacancies.
Lots of aero related vacancies at Williams
16 March, 2019 00:09
http://www.f1network.net/boards/read/s107.htm?110,...
Comment by poster shriekback;
"Man, many of the positions seem to be well-beyond entry-level too.
Either the team is trying to address its recent shortcomings by expanding, or there is a bit of a house-cleaning of the upper levels of various departments (especially aero) going on. My bet would be on the latter.
I suppose we should consider a third alternative--that a significant number of people that were in higher-end positions in the aero dept. have decided of their own accord to leave the team. Let's hope that is not the case."
The link to the Williams job listings – Open Positions
https://www.williamsf1.com/pages/careers/WMR
See attachment for current list of vacancies.
Car-Matt said:
Embarrassing for Kubica, he’s not up to it
I think it is embarrassing for the team that they couldn't have even run him in the old car in Barcelona. He clearly needed mileage, and will have posited his pre-season preparation upon getting that mileage.I think it will be more reasonable to draw conclusions after the next race.
Fundoreen said:
good solid race with russell finishing ahead of big guns like ricciardo,sainz and grosjean plus his teamate.
Can we say he 'finished ahead' when they didn't finish at all!?I'm not sure it's worth giving a guy credit for the misfortune of others.
In my book, he was second to last and beat only kubica. Kubica also suffered some bad luck of course, but even without it, Russell still would have beaten him.
Deesee said:
Kubica has less than a few races to prove himself.
The reserve driver is Latifi (son of the McLaren investor).
In by Baku?
Depends on the terms of the money Kubica bought in. If it wasn't for that, I could see a switch being made.The reserve driver is Latifi (son of the McLaren investor).
In by Baku?
Although it's all a little academic, you could swap Kubica for Leclerc and the points potential would still be no better than it is now.
The other angle is, does Kubica even want to see the season through? He looks almost depressed, more so the more time he has in the car.
TheDeuce said:
tigerkoi said:
I’m with your logic.
Like Rockefeller once said, “...you must have a larger ambition.”
Williams is stymied because their short-to-mid term ambition isn’t about achieving anymore, but rather that their competition is dragged down to their level. Betting on a budget cap or Liberty showing they’re anything more than three stooges with marketing plan just telegraphs weakness.
I’d be interested to see if Brad Hollinger becomes more prominent and expressive in the next 18 months or so over preserving shareholder value.
Very well worded. They want to survive, by surviving. But survival in sport requires a plan to win.Like Rockefeller once said, “...you must have a larger ambition.”
Williams is stymied because their short-to-mid term ambition isn’t about achieving anymore, but rather that their competition is dragged down to their level. Betting on a budget cap or Liberty showing they’re anything more than three stooges with marketing plan just telegraphs weakness.
I’d be interested to see if Brad Hollinger becomes more prominent and expressive in the next 18 months or so over preserving shareholder value.
I do wonder if Frank will ever listen to reality though. I get the impression a truly impressive business plan for a new ownership could be shown to him and he wouldn't accept it. Which, I will always say is fair enough, it's his gig.
In the end he has another loyalty though, I don't think he will throw the value in the team away, he would surely want the money from a shares sale for his retirement and for his family. Based on that logic, I think Williams has to hit absolute crisis point before Frank and Claire will consider letting go. This season is a joke but they haven't given up just yet.. I think when they get to a point that their sponsorship revenue becomes inadequate, they will finally start to look at options to back out as a family.
if he does, it will be to an OEM under the new regs structure if they can't be made to work at privateer level. i think the engineering arm will live on as a respected tier 1 supplier to the remaining teams under standardised parts / budget cap rules.
the main thing i got from the first [or perhaps 2nd] netflix episode is claire once more saying she might not be cut out for her role. i find this a mark of her character. i can't think of any other senior sporting or business figure who would publicly admit that on camera. hardly a leader.
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
Kubica has less than a few races to prove himself.
The reserve driver is Latifi (son of the McLaren investor).
In by Baku?
Depends on the terms of the money Kubica bought in. If it wasn't for that, I could see a switch being made.The reserve driver is Latifi (son of the McLaren investor).
In by Baku?
Although it's all a little academic, you could swap Kubica for Leclerc and the points potential would still be no better than it is now.
The other angle is, does Kubica even want to see the season through? He looks almost depressed, more so the more time he has in the car.
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
Kubica has less than a few races to prove himself.
The reserve driver is Latifi (son of the McLaren investor).
In by Baku?
Depends on the terms of the money Kubica bought in. If it wasn't for that, I could see a switch being made.The reserve driver is Latifi (son of the McLaren investor).
In by Baku?
Although it's all a little academic, you could swap Kubica for Leclerc and the points potential would still be no better than it is now.
The other angle is, does Kubica even want to see the season through? He looks almost depressed, more so the more time he has in the car.
If George is consistently quicker they’ll have to do something.
shirt said:
TheDeuce said:
tigerkoi said:
I’m with your logic.
Like Rockefeller once said, “...you must have a larger ambition.”
Williams is stymied because their short-to-mid term ambition isn’t about achieving anymore, but rather that their competition is dragged down to their level. Betting on a budget cap or Liberty showing they’re anything more than three stooges with marketing plan just telegraphs weakness.
I’d be interested to see if Brad Hollinger becomes more prominent and expressive in the next 18 months or so over preserving shareholder value.
Very well worded. They want to survive, by surviving. But survival in sport requires a plan to win.Like Rockefeller once said, “...you must have a larger ambition.”
Williams is stymied because their short-to-mid term ambition isn’t about achieving anymore, but rather that their competition is dragged down to their level. Betting on a budget cap or Liberty showing they’re anything more than three stooges with marketing plan just telegraphs weakness.
I’d be interested to see if Brad Hollinger becomes more prominent and expressive in the next 18 months or so over preserving shareholder value.
I do wonder if Frank will ever listen to reality though. I get the impression a truly impressive business plan for a new ownership could be shown to him and he wouldn't accept it. Which, I will always say is fair enough, it's his gig.
In the end he has another loyalty though, I don't think he will throw the value in the team away, he would surely want the money from a shares sale for his retirement and for his family. Based on that logic, I think Williams has to hit absolute crisis point before Frank and Claire will consider letting go. This season is a joke but they haven't given up just yet.. I think when they get to a point that their sponsorship revenue becomes inadequate, they will finally start to look at options to back out as a family.
if he does, it will be to an OEM under the new regs structure if they can't be made to work at privateer level. i think the engineering arm will live on as a respected tier 1 supplier to the remaining teams under standardised parts / budget cap rules.
the main thing i got from the first [or perhaps 2nd] netflix episode is claire once more saying she might not be cut out for her role. i find this a mark of her character. i can't think of any other senior sporting or business figure who would publicly admit that on camera. hardly a leader.
If he wants control over the situation he either needs to accept it's time to sell, or somehow fix the problems. The latter is a tough one for Frank, as I suspect he is one of the problems.
TheDeuce said:
shirt said:
TheDeuce said:
tigerkoi said:
I’m with your logic.
Like Rockefeller once said, “...you must have a larger ambition.”
Williams is stymied because their short-to-mid term ambition isn’t about achieving anymore, but rather that their competition is dragged down to their level. Betting on a budget cap or Liberty showing they’re anything more than three stooges with marketing plan just telegraphs weakness.
I’d be interested to see if Brad Hollinger becomes more prominent and expressive in the next 18 months or so over preserving shareholder value.
Very well worded. They want to survive, by surviving. But survival in sport requires a plan to win.Like Rockefeller once said, “...you must have a larger ambition.”
Williams is stymied because their short-to-mid term ambition isn’t about achieving anymore, but rather that their competition is dragged down to their level. Betting on a budget cap or Liberty showing they’re anything more than three stooges with marketing plan just telegraphs weakness.
I’d be interested to see if Brad Hollinger becomes more prominent and expressive in the next 18 months or so over preserving shareholder value.
I do wonder if Frank will ever listen to reality though. I get the impression a truly impressive business plan for a new ownership could be shown to him and he wouldn't accept it. Which, I will always say is fair enough, it's his gig.
In the end he has another loyalty though, I don't think he will throw the value in the team away, he would surely want the money from a shares sale for his retirement and for his family. Based on that logic, I think Williams has to hit absolute crisis point before Frank and Claire will consider letting go. This season is a joke but they haven't given up just yet.. I think when they get to a point that their sponsorship revenue becomes inadequate, they will finally start to look at options to back out as a family.
if he does, it will be to an OEM under the new regs structure if they can't be made to work at privateer level. i think the engineering arm will live on as a respected tier 1 supplier to the remaining teams under standardised parts / budget cap rules.
the main thing i got from the first [or perhaps 2nd] netflix episode is claire once more saying she might not be cut out for her role. i find this a mark of her character. i can't think of any other senior sporting or business figure who would publicly admit that on camera. hardly a leader.
If he wants control over the situation he either needs to accept it's time to sell, or somehow fix the problems. The latter is a tough one for Frank, as I suspect he is one of the problems.
who is slotting in to f1 nicely.
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