Discussion
Petrus1983 said:
I was just reading that Christian Horner believes 2020 will be the most expensive season yet - with basically a 2020 team, and a 2021 advanced team operating at the same time before the budget cap comes in. I highly doubt Williams will have the budget to operate at that kinda level so will be on the back foot again going into 2021.
I'm guessing absolutely minimal expenditure on their 2020 car - no point developing what they've got for it to quickly become irrelevant. Put some students on it, see what they can come up with. Petrus1983 said:
skinny said:
I'm guessing absolutely minimal expenditure on their 2020 car - no point developing what they've got for it to quickly become irrelevant. Put some students on it, see what they can come up with.
Yes - that makes a lot more sense!Another benefit of not changing anything major - the car will arrive for winter testing on time.
Unless they manage to secure sponsorship or seat selling revenue in excess of this season I can't see how they have any sort of development budget to speak of really. Not for 2020 or by extension 2021. That's surely an issue as the 2021 car has to be a ground up effort and serious money is needed to design a new car, just to get it functioning within the new regs, before even trying to make it competitive.
This is why I really don't expect the team ownership to remain as it is by the end of next season.
thegreenhell said:
Williams have announced the sale of a majority stake in their Advanced Engineering company to some venture capitalists.
Flogging off the family Silver.Much as I do not want it to happen, I think I would prefer if Williams GP was being sold to a wealthy benefactor with a strong managment team.
rdjohn said:
thegreenhell said:
Williams have announced the sale of a majority stake in their Advanced Engineering company to some venture capitalists.
Flogging off the family Silver.Much as I do not want it to happen, I think I would prefer if Williams GP was being sold to a wealthy benefactor with a strong managment team.
I agree totally that it's time to sell the whole team. Frank will not let anyone else other than Claire run it, and Claire, (pretty much) by her own admission, isn't the right person... What other choice is there?? They need a major cash injection at some point to get back on top of F1 for long enough for the sponsorship to come back and they can then be self sufficient funding wise without needing further cash injections.
I'm half sad about that reality as Williams fan, but on the other hand it IS a reality. The team Frank built cannot possibly compete as a grass roots constructor team with their budget these days, and even with the budget cap, they fall short. The team as he built it no longer fits, and if it has to change, then I would rather it happens sooner rather than later and that changes are made by new majority owners. At least that way we can reflect on what was achieved under Williams family ownership and judge the team under new ownership separately.
I'd imagine 2020 will basically be a case of turning up to each race and doing just enough to ensure they don't slip outside 107%. All the while pumping resources from this sale of assets into a 2021 car that can compete.
I believe 2021 will be do or die for Williams, a bad car that year will mean selling up, a good car will see increased revenue in a budget limited formula and a chance to get off the back row. Hard to believe this is Williams we are talking about, but it's reality.
I believe 2021 will be do or die for Williams, a bad car that year will mean selling up, a good car will see increased revenue in a budget limited formula and a chance to get off the back row. Hard to believe this is Williams we are talking about, but it's reality.
Piginapoke said:
A huge strategic error. Should have sold the GP team and concentrated on WAE- that's the growth business in a growth sector. F1 team is just losing money and credibility.
If FW still wanted a race team, Formula E is the way to go, <10% of operating costs, and a great fit with WAE.
They're not looking at it from a business point of view. The passion is for F1 so they've sold the sister business to prop up the F1 side. As individuals Frank and Claire are already set for life so don't need to worry about what is profitable and what is not.If FW still wanted a race team, Formula E is the way to go, <10% of operating costs, and a great fit with WAE.
In any case, if the F1 team does recover then they'll continue to profit from it. If not, they'll sell it in the end and make a huge personal payoff from the shares sold.
The only big problem is if they struggle on too long with no effective turn around solution and end up near bankrupting the team and have to sell it for £1. That's happened before when stubbornness overrules reality..
To be fair to Williams, they make it clear on their website they develop ideas from F1, create a business and spin it out giving a lump sum and future income and concentrate on going racing.
Just as they did with the Hybrid Power sale to GKN five years ago or so.
I don't know FW personally but I don't see him as the sort of person to give up after a few years of poor performance.
Just as they did with the Hybrid Power sale to GKN five years ago or so.
I don't know FW personally but I don't see him as the sort of person to give up after a few years of poor performance.
He may have to give up if he runs out of cash. They are (relatively) asset rich, but cash poor.
But as Liberty have to field 20-cars, they have to ensure that the team cannot fail. That is nearly as unacceptable as Ferrari’s extra 5%. From 2021 the fund distribution is more equitable - that could be Williams’ life-line.
But as Liberty have to field 20-cars, they have to ensure that the team cannot fail. That is nearly as unacceptable as Ferrari’s extra 5%. From 2021 the fund distribution is more equitable - that could be Williams’ life-line.
hunter 66 said:
Move to Formula EV now , get ahead in the new world ??
A private team won't compete with the works teams in FE either, especially as they become more and more works team bespoke focused.The fundamentals of the F1 car are all there (top level powertrain), if they sort their Aero problems out for next year, they should be in the ball park of the mid field runners again.
Paddy Lowe was not the answer for them, it appears he sent them down a blind alley. No reason why they can't recover from that IMHO.
hunter 66 said:
Move to Formula EV now , get ahead in the new world ??
There’s some logic there. I’ve no interest in watching Formula E in its current state, but the amount of manufactures entering it would seem to be gaining momentum. Though in terms of exposure, I don’t see how they are getting value for money currently. You’d think Williams would have a good start in FE having been involved from the start.
Selling the family silverware seems a slippery slope. I thought that the engineering side of things was the money earner. So when the money from the sell off runs out?!
I hope they can make some sort of come back, but they seem so drastically behind now.
DS240 said:
hunter 66 said:
Move to Formula EV now , get ahead in the new world ??
There’s some logic there. I’ve no interest in watching Formula E in its current state, but the amount of manufactures entering it would seem to be gaining momentum. Though in terms of exposure, I don’t see how they are getting value for money currently. You’d think Williams would have a good start in FE having been involved from the start.
Selling the family silverware seems a slippery slope. I thought that the engineering side of things was the money earner. So when the money from the sell off runs out?!
I hope they can make some sort of come back, but they seem so drastically behind now.
Yes WAE made a healthy profit but that's really down to the fact that half the R&D of their product output was down to Williams F1. As a separate entity, I'm not so sure it would work. There is a reason sister companies are created, and they tend to stop working when they're removed from the family.
If they've sold WAE for £30m or above then I can believe they have a shot at 2021. If it's less than that then it's looking like their 2020 budget is about the same as their 2019 budget, but they have to also develop a brand new era car - in other words, hopeless.
The sale of WAE is news but it's not information until we have some idea of how much money is raised. Unless it's massive, Williams are still stuck in a rut.
Just another note following my previous post... I do think the sale of WAE is positive. I'll be jumping for joy if the money raised is enough to really sort the F1 team for 2021. So far I haven't seen a figure reported so have to wait and see I guess.
The big positive is that they're prepared to sell to improve, and if needs be maybe that ethos will carry through if the time comes to consider selling the team itself to someone who can properly re-capitalise it. I'd obviously love it if the WAE money was enough to carry them competitively in 2021, although I'm dubious about the likelihood of that.
At this stage it's good to see sacrifices made in the face of reality at Williams and fingers crossed 2021 works for them with whatever money they have raised. I'd love it if the team did stay family owned - albeit I'm not sure Claire is the right person for the job, and niether is she!
The big positive is that they're prepared to sell to improve, and if needs be maybe that ethos will carry through if the time comes to consider selling the team itself to someone who can properly re-capitalise it. I'd obviously love it if the WAE money was enough to carry them competitively in 2021, although I'm dubious about the likelihood of that.
At this stage it's good to see sacrifices made in the face of reality at Williams and fingers crossed 2021 works for them with whatever money they have raised. I'd love it if the team did stay family owned - albeit I'm not sure Claire is the right person for the job, and niether is she!
And when you think that things really can't get any worse for Williams, they seem to have lumbered themselves with Dan Tantrum as some sort of "development" driver.
He must be bringing money from somewhere, but Red Bull dropped him some time ago, and surely nobody with any sense and/or internet access would politely tell him to go forth and multiply if he came sniffing around hoping for a drive.
He must be bringing money from somewhere, but Red Bull dropped him some time ago, and surely nobody with any sense and/or internet access would politely tell him to go forth and multiply if he came sniffing around hoping for a drive.
Dermot O'Logical said:
And when you think that things really can't get any worse for Williams, they seem to have lumbered themselves with Dan Tantrum as some sort of "development" driver.
He must be bringing money from somewhere, but Red Bull dropped him some time ago, and surely nobody with any sense and/or internet access would politely tell him to go forth and multiply if he came sniffing around hoping for a drive.
That's the sitch though... Their performance as an F1 team isn't attracting big enough sponsors these days so they're selling whatever they can - including a dev driver seat - to bridge the gap. I imagine the only reason they took so long to confirm latifi was because they wanted to make absolutely certain there was no chance of a billionaire buying their son a seat instead.He must be bringing money from somewhere, but Red Bull dropped him some time ago, and surely nobody with any sense and/or internet access would politely tell him to go forth and multiply if he came sniffing around hoping for a drive.
It is what it is however, they have no choice. Other than sell the team, which they won't do until there is literally no other option. There is at least a slight chance that whatever money they've dragged in so far is enough to give them a worthwhile shot at 2021 so just maybe they can get back on top of the sport.. or at least off their backside.
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