Official 2019 Chinese Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
rscott said:
Deesee said:
There is serious consideration under way that not only are Merc the best run/managed team in f1 (and possibly all time F1), but they may well be the best run sports team of all time.
They seem to have set a bar so high, let’s hope the others can follow the discipline and continual improvement shown, step up & give these guys a run for their money.
An example of their confidence in their own abilities - the double stack pit stop yesterday.They seem to have set a bar so high, let’s hope the others can follow the discipline and continual improvement shown, step up & give these guys a run for their money.
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1117357178791321601?...
There is something about Toto and the general air of controlled confidence at Mercedes that is very, very powerful. If the teams were all on a genuinely level playing field, I think it's that sort of (literally perhaps) Germanic order and calmness that would get the edge. Compare Mercedes to Ferrari, who have a comparable budget.. Ferrari rock up with a car that almost unbelievably fast, then turns out to be tricky to setup, and has a mechanical issue with some reasonable level of suspicion over their cooling, and what modes they can run without risking issues. Mercedes on the other hand, turn up with a car that is 'fast enough' and an overall package and team harmony that throughout a season can easily offset the occasional outright speed deficit to Ferrari.
The double pit stop showed that level of organisation and confidence at work. Of course they know their crew can do that.. that's how it should be really.
Like many I was starting to grow tired of Mercedes dominance. But I think there comes a point where something lasts so long, it stops being boring and becomes truly impressive. No other team has owned the sport for so long, so soon after coming together. The awkward truth is, that with the same spending power, Mercedes are doing far better than Ferrari, a team with decades more cumulative involvement in the sport.
And they have a driver that is within snatching distance of breaking just about every really important record in the sport. I'm thankful to be focused on the sport in an era that I'm sure will be long held in future memory.
Get on board chaps - we're well on our way to seeing a team become the new greatest ever in our sport. It might be boring sometimes today, but one day we will all be banging on about it to the newcomers.
Derek Smith said:
I'm not sure Stewart was the first.
When Moss was in his prime, everyone knew about him. When he won the Millie Miglia it was in the main pages of the newspapers. My father brought me a selection of them. When he had his crash it was on the TV news and on the front page of a number of dailies. Clark was voted sports personality of the year and came second once. Hill came second. These were big names.
It was Moss who ensured that sports car racing was at least the equal to F1 when he was driving. Everyone followed Le Mans, even my aunt Ada, who regarded Moss as that nice man.
Stewart was different in some ways. He latched on to the youth movement that was then a few years old. He might have been the first to earn a few bob at it, although I heard him suggest he was hard done by.
I suppose it depends on your definition of superstar but I reckon Moss had a bigger fanbase than Stewart.
I'd have to agree with that, Stewart was respected for his ability but I'm not sure he was ever well liked, he treated racing as too much of a business for that. Sterling Moss was (and still is) a much loved superstar of the 50/60s, partly because of his "derring do" and partly because he was (is) a genuinely nice bloke.When Moss was in his prime, everyone knew about him. When he won the Millie Miglia it was in the main pages of the newspapers. My father brought me a selection of them. When he had his crash it was on the TV news and on the front page of a number of dailies. Clark was voted sports personality of the year and came second once. Hill came second. These were big names.
It was Moss who ensured that sports car racing was at least the equal to F1 when he was driving. Everyone followed Le Mans, even my aunt Ada, who regarded Moss as that nice man.
Stewart was different in some ways. He latched on to the youth movement that was then a few years old. He might have been the first to earn a few bob at it, although I heard him suggest he was hard done by.
I suppose it depends on your definition of superstar but I reckon Moss had a bigger fanbase than Stewart.
Stewart often said he liked to take all the emotion out of racing, Sterling never said anything that dull in his life. Oh, he was also a better driver, in my opinion.
Just my opinion....
The turbo hybrid era has been the best in my memory.
I loved the 80s and 90s, the turn of the century I can leave and the V8 00s onwards we’re good but for all the amazing seasons they were interspersed with walkover years.
In the turbo hybrid era it’s genuinely been a hard fought battle for each drivers world championship.
Even 2015.
I can’t remember a time when it was consistently this open between two drivers-even though 14-16 it was simply between teammates-at least they could race!
WCC, a different story, granted.
I’ve argued it before but I think books and films will be made about Mercedes F1 in our lifetimes. Quite simply, one of the greatest teams in the history of sport.
The turbo hybrid era has been the best in my memory.
I loved the 80s and 90s, the turn of the century I can leave and the V8 00s onwards we’re good but for all the amazing seasons they were interspersed with walkover years.
In the turbo hybrid era it’s genuinely been a hard fought battle for each drivers world championship.
Even 2015.
I can’t remember a time when it was consistently this open between two drivers-even though 14-16 it was simply between teammates-at least they could race!
WCC, a different story, granted.
I’ve argued it before but I think books and films will be made about Mercedes F1 in our lifetimes. Quite simply, one of the greatest teams in the history of sport.
TobyTR said:
Fact: the last time a team scored three 1-2 finishes in the first three rounds of a season was... 1992, Williams
kind of says it all really. I disagree that this is an exciting era of F1 when you can predict what teams will finish in the top-6
So.. you're waiting for an era when the obviously best honed teams don't generally win the races?kind of says it all really. I disagree that this is an exciting era of F1 when you can predict what teams will finish in the top-6
They've put in the effort = they will generally get the places. That's correct surely? The top two teams have compared budgets, so the one that does the best with that budget tends to win...
Same story in midfield.
I'm not sure how it's possible to make it less predictable without simply making it less fair.
TheDeuce said:
So.. you're waiting for an era when the obviously best honed teams don't generally win the races?
They've put in the effort = they will generally get the places. That's correct surely? The top two teams have compared budgets, so the one that does the best with that budget tends to win...
Same story in midfield.
I'm not sure how it's possible to make it less predictable without simply making it less fair.
No, I'm waiting for an era where you can't predict the top-6 as Merc, Merc, Ferrari, Ferrari, Red Bull, Red BullThey've put in the effort = they will generally get the places. That's correct surely? The top two teams have compared budgets, so the one that does the best with that budget tends to win...
Same story in midfield.
I'm not sure how it's possible to make it less predictable without simply making it less fair.
TobyTR said:
No, I'm waiting for an era where you can't predict the top-6 as Merc, Merc, Ferrari, Ferrari, Red Bull, Red Bull
But why should it not be predictable for the most competitive teams to generally win in order of competitiveness?Short of some sort of mariocart scenario where banana skins get thrown onto the track, I don't see how else it can work.
The only difference now, compared to past eras, is that the teams are so proficient that they can manage a winning streak for years. But they're still earning it, they're still doing the work. I don't understand how that can be changed without making the sport random/unfair in some way.
Clutching at straws. Still goes without saying, this is the most dominant era by one team in the history of F1; it's no wonder viewing figures are less than 50% of what they were in 2007...
Do you honestly believe you will see another team on the podium other than the top three? The fact is there is less variety in the top-half of the field than we've had for quite some time, since 2012 for sure. Much more often than not, the top-6 will be Merc, Ferrari, Red Bull.
What I find amusing is people moan about Ferrari's domination when it was no where near as bad as this Mercedes hybrid era (graphs futher back on this thread), but because Hamilton and Mercedes are arguably more likeable than the Schumacher/Ferrari combination here, it kind of gets accepted as still a great era by some.
And before I'm shot down, the beauty of a forum is we can all discuss our own opinions
I may be guilty of rose-tinted, but i'm only 32. However, what I loathe about this era is: DRS and the artificial overtaking, the lack of podium variety, the lack of manufacturers (global economy & super-expensive/complex F1 regs), far too much downforce, 730kg weight of the cars, the fact they aren't as fast over a total race distance and have to conserve too much during a race (during V10 era they were within 2secs of the fastest lap throughout the entire race and were all sweating buckets at the end), yes the cars sound much worse but there's not a lot that can be done about that... I think many took that for granted when we had access to that on a fortnightly basis. I know I did. And there;'s nothing wrong with pointing out when some things were better in the past.
But like many, I continue to watch because it's F1 and with some hope it will get better. For sure it's improved since 2016. Lets hope it continues, because it needs to
Do you honestly believe you will see another team on the podium other than the top three? The fact is there is less variety in the top-half of the field than we've had for quite some time, since 2012 for sure. Much more often than not, the top-6 will be Merc, Ferrari, Red Bull.
What I find amusing is people moan about Ferrari's domination when it was no where near as bad as this Mercedes hybrid era (graphs futher back on this thread), but because Hamilton and Mercedes are arguably more likeable than the Schumacher/Ferrari combination here, it kind of gets accepted as still a great era by some.
And before I'm shot down, the beauty of a forum is we can all discuss our own opinions
I may be guilty of rose-tinted, but i'm only 32. However, what I loathe about this era is: DRS and the artificial overtaking, the lack of podium variety, the lack of manufacturers (global economy & super-expensive/complex F1 regs), far too much downforce, 730kg weight of the cars, the fact they aren't as fast over a total race distance and have to conserve too much during a race (during V10 era they were within 2secs of the fastest lap throughout the entire race and were all sweating buckets at the end), yes the cars sound much worse but there's not a lot that can be done about that... I think many took that for granted when we had access to that on a fortnightly basis. I know I did. And there;'s nothing wrong with pointing out when some things were better in the past.
But like many, I continue to watch because it's F1 and with some hope it will get better. For sure it's improved since 2016. Lets hope it continues, because it needs to
paua said:
schmalex said:
Interesting. When was the last time we had a classic F1 race with genuine edge of the seat action from start to finish?
Possibly, N.ring 1957. Somewhat before I was born, though. Or the slipstream battles at Monza, before chicanes & modern aero. Mercedes are walking it because they're as fast off track as they are on track. They win the invisible race, between races. I find it impossible to criticise Mercedes for that, they're doing the best job, they should win! What's more interesting for me is that Ferrari have similar resources yet can't pull it together, and red bull have lesser resources yet still contend.
In terms of excitement, this is a Ferrari Vs 'shown up by red bull' season.
Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 16th April 00:23
Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 16th April 00:24
Derek Smith said:
I'm not sure Stewart was the first.
When Moss was in his prime, everyone knew about him. When he won the Millie Miglia it was in the main pages of the newspapers. My father brought me a selection of them. When he had his crash it was on the TV news and on the front page of a number of dailies. Clark was voted sports personality of the year and came second once. Hill came second. These were big names.
It was Moss who ensured that sports car racing was at least the equal to F1 when he was driving. Everyone followed Le Mans, even my aunt Ada, who regarded Moss as that nice man.
Stewart was different in some ways. He latched on to the youth movement that was then a few years old. He might have been the first to earn a few bob at it, although I heard him suggest he was hard done by.
I suppose it depends on your definition of superstar but I reckon Moss had a bigger fanbase than Stewart.
Stewart wasn't the first - but he seems desperate to be the last!When Moss was in his prime, everyone knew about him. When he won the Millie Miglia it was in the main pages of the newspapers. My father brought me a selection of them. When he had his crash it was on the TV news and on the front page of a number of dailies. Clark was voted sports personality of the year and came second once. Hill came second. These were big names.
It was Moss who ensured that sports car racing was at least the equal to F1 when he was driving. Everyone followed Le Mans, even my aunt Ada, who regarded Moss as that nice man.
Stewart was different in some ways. He latched on to the youth movement that was then a few years old. He might have been the first to earn a few bob at it, although I heard him suggest he was hard done by.
I suppose it depends on your definition of superstar but I reckon Moss had a bigger fanbase than Stewart.
In a close run contest with Moss, who never won anything much!
I'd rate Mike Hailwood, Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, Dan Gurney, John Surtees and Jim Clarke far above either of them!
TheDeuce said:
I couldn't agree more, with you both.
There is something about Toto and the general air of controlled confidence at Mercedes that is very, very powerful. If the teams were all on a genuinely level playing field, I think it's that sort of (literally perhaps) Germanic order and calmness that would get the edge. Compare Mercedes to Ferrari, who have a comparable budget.. Ferrari rock up with a car that almost unbelievably fast, then turns out to be tricky to setup, and has a mechanical issue with some reasonable level of suspicion over their cooling, and what modes they can run without risking issues. Mercedes on the other hand, turn up with a car that is 'fast enough' and an overall package and team harmony that throughout a season can easily offset the occasional outright speed deficit to Ferrari.
The double pit stop showed that level of organisation and confidence at work. Of course they know their crew can do that.. that's how it should be really.
Like many I was starting to grow tired of Mercedes dominance. But I think there comes a point where something lasts so long, it stops being boring and becomes truly impressive. No other team has owned the sport for so long, so soon after coming together. The awkward truth is, that with the same spending power, Mercedes are doing far better than Ferrari, a team with decades more cumulative involvement in the sport.
And they have a driver that is within snatching distance of breaking just about every really important record in the sport. I'm thankful to be focused on the sport in an era that I'm sure will be long held in future memory.
Get on board chaps - we're well on our way to seeing a team become the new greatest ever in our sport. It might be boring sometimes today, but one day we will all be banging on about it to the newcomers.
Well put. People like to reminisce about the great teams of different eras, but we are lucky to be witnessing the best team in the sports history. There is something about Toto and the general air of controlled confidence at Mercedes that is very, very powerful. If the teams were all on a genuinely level playing field, I think it's that sort of (literally perhaps) Germanic order and calmness that would get the edge. Compare Mercedes to Ferrari, who have a comparable budget.. Ferrari rock up with a car that almost unbelievably fast, then turns out to be tricky to setup, and has a mechanical issue with some reasonable level of suspicion over their cooling, and what modes they can run without risking issues. Mercedes on the other hand, turn up with a car that is 'fast enough' and an overall package and team harmony that throughout a season can easily offset the occasional outright speed deficit to Ferrari.
The double pit stop showed that level of organisation and confidence at work. Of course they know their crew can do that.. that's how it should be really.
Like many I was starting to grow tired of Mercedes dominance. But I think there comes a point where something lasts so long, it stops being boring and becomes truly impressive. No other team has owned the sport for so long, so soon after coming together. The awkward truth is, that with the same spending power, Mercedes are doing far better than Ferrari, a team with decades more cumulative involvement in the sport.
And they have a driver that is within snatching distance of breaking just about every really important record in the sport. I'm thankful to be focused on the sport in an era that I'm sure will be long held in future memory.
Get on board chaps - we're well on our way to seeing a team become the new greatest ever in our sport. It might be boring sometimes today, but one day we will all be banging on about it to the newcomers.
I wanted to start related discussion. I was thinking of starting a separate thread.
Question: how good could the Brackley team be without Mercedes Benz?
Actually, I will start another thread.
The remarkable thing for me about Mercedes as a team recently has been how often they win even when they clearly don't have the fastest car. 2014-2016 they dominated on technical merit alone but for the last two years they've beaten Ferrari at the track rather than in the design studio.Edited by kambites on Tuesday 16th April 08:05
Several good points made above, and similar complaints as to those made in the Schumacher era at Ferrari.
We are watching greatness unfold, and whilst there is an element of repetitiveness from time to time, there is nothing dull about watching the best people perform in an astounding way.
Pushing the envelope is always entertaining.
We are watching greatness unfold, and whilst there is an element of repetitiveness from time to time, there is nothing dull about watching the best people perform in an astounding way.
Pushing the envelope is always entertaining.
HorneyMX5 said:
One thing that is making the most difference is reliability, these cars and power units are just so reliable these days.
Go back to the 90s and you'd get very mixed podiums because a lot of cars didn't finish at all. Now it' s shock when a car fails.
Yup. Engines and manual gearboxes contributed a lot.Go back to the 90s and you'd get very mixed podiums because a lot of cars didn't finish at all. Now it' s shock when a car fails.
Maybe we scrap auto boxes and have a 6 speed H box with a clutch and an electronic interlock to prevent blowing up the engine.
And some simpler, lighter, cheaper turbo engines that can have a full on quali mode (with risk of it going bang)
Mercedes look to be in a class of their own from a management perspective IMHO.
The cars at the front of the grid are all very close on performance, but the Mercedes team just look to be a step ahead on race strategy, driver management and car reliability, they are just doing everything better and more efficiently that Ferrari and the other teams, and that is what is keeping them on the top step.
One thing I was disappointed about on Sunday was the poor performance of McLaren, they have shown some real speed at the first two races with Norris doing especially well, yet at China they were way off the mid-field pace from day one. Even without the contact from Kvyat, they were much further back than they had been. Disappointing signs of a false dawn, or just a one-off blip in their recovery?
The cars at the front of the grid are all very close on performance, but the Mercedes team just look to be a step ahead on race strategy, driver management and car reliability, they are just doing everything better and more efficiently that Ferrari and the other teams, and that is what is keeping them on the top step.
One thing I was disappointed about on Sunday was the poor performance of McLaren, they have shown some real speed at the first two races with Norris doing especially well, yet at China they were way off the mid-field pace from day one. Even without the contact from Kvyat, they were much further back than they had been. Disappointing signs of a false dawn, or just a one-off blip in their recovery?
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