Official 2019 Spanish Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official 2019 Spanish Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

TobyTR

420 posts

87 months

Wednesday 15th May
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rdjohn said:
vdn said:
Martin says:

“...firstly, let's not pretend it was way better years or decades ago, a quick check of most results sheets underlines that.“

So yes, I agree with that. I disagree that it should only be about the drivers. There are other series to watch if one wants that. F1 should be the technical pinnacle of motorsport otherwise, it loses one of the main things that sets it apart: the fastest cars with the best drivers. Simple as that.
30-years ago Jordan put a very handy car on the grid with a team of 20 people and computers running Windows 3.1. The cars were state of the art and not over complex.

Mercedes and Ferrari have pushed those numbers to 1000 staff and Terabytes of supercomputers to put two competitive cars on the grid for 21 races. And Ferrari are looking like Donkeys.

What is currently happening is completely illogical - especially with tyre managment. Running a competitive F2 car, costs about £3million per year.

There has to be a better compromise where there are 26 competitive cars on the grid. I am certain that Liberty and Ross know exactly what needs to be done. But the big teams just need to get a sense of proportion and go with it. If it does not meet their corporate marketing budget, they just need to relax their grip - and move on. Racing Point are saying that the limit that is being suggested by Liberty is still too much for their team to live with.

Edited by rdjohn on Tuesday 14th May 12:33
nails it and Brundle is spot on with everything he said in that column too. Especially this:

"And this is why 2021 is so important for F1, but we've probably missed the optimum moment or maybe they should delay it a year. We must recreate the days when a Jordan, Stewart, or Force India might, just might, win the race. And create the environment where they can exist in the first place.

And while I'm ranting, I saw a number of interviews with these privileged drivers at the weekend which were reluctant, dismissive and grumpy. You are F1 drivers living the ultimate dream, it's not the dentist's waiting room on a wet Monday morning."

In 2004 when F1 cars were at their fastest, budgets seemingly insane and they were going through engines every weekend, the lower teams could still campaign a full year significantly cheaper. Jordan's budget was US$79m per year, and Minardi (albeit bottom of the pack) US$46m... Williams budget last year was US$150m - all those 'cost-cutting' measures and hybridisation over the last decade has had the opposite affect.

They need to find the balance again of racing/engineering. If the balance tips in favour of engineering then the racing will suffer and vice-versa, but F1 needs to be simpler, imo. DRS should've gone years ago and the cars should've been made 100+kgs lighter with reduced/simpler aero going into 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwcSaayPy7w



kambites

56,511 posts

162 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Maybe they should keep the formula as it is but force all the teams to release full CAD drawings and all CFD and wind-tunnel results at the end of each season. That wouldn't stifle innovation but would provide something of a level in performance.

Derek Smith

33,181 posts

189 months

Wednesday 15th May
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
Eric Mc said:
The Indy GP debacle where only a few cars ran a few laps was a disgrace.
Wasn't that the good old days that we want back?
Play nicely, now.

That was down to one man,whom I thought of as the enemy of the sport. He accused McLaren of bringing the sport into disrepute, but then he should have known. The main problem with having a dictator in charge of F1 was when the tator became superfluous.

That race, well it wasn't a race, was it; that farce was so extreme that it should be as forgotten as the idiot who orchestrated it. The good old days were probably about as good as these good new days. There were some fabulous weekends. There were some dire ones. Some people are complaining about the state of the sport just two races after Bahrain, one of the most eventful and thrilling races ever. It even had pathos thrown in.

Spain and Monaco are often uneventful so in the grand scale of things, this was one of the better Spanish GPs. Let's look at the races post Monaco before reading the last rites. (Are they read? You'd think these vicars should remember them.)


Vaud

32,040 posts

96 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
kambites said:
Maybe they should keep the formula as it is but force all the teams to release full CAD drawings and all CFD and wind-tunnel results at the end of each season. That wouldn't stifle innovation but would provide something of a level in performance.
Wouldn't that just create a two tier formulae?

The leaders would innovate.
The followers would build a copy of last years winner.
Plus there is the complexity of fuels, engine modes, etc - how the whole package comes together.

Might as well just allow teams to licence a n-1 car from the leaders.

TheDeuce

1,424 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Gad-Westy said:
The green angle pees me off. You could make the cars run on fairy dust but whilst they're still being flown backwards and forwards across the Atlantic and to Asia or other parts of Europe every other week along with the enormous circus of people and kit, that follows them, then precisely what fuel and how much of it the cars themselves use seems trivially irrelevant. It's a shame really as I know, it's about the overall image of the sport, but it's such a wafer thin 'green' veil that it annoys me that it's given any credibility at all and yet here we are five years into the hybrid, 100l per race era.
I get your logic, but it's really more about the message than the fact. F1 wants to be seen as cutting edge, so wants to reflect the trend in road cars at the moment.

I also understand the frustration. But, having given this a lot of thought, I think there probably was no other option than to go hybrid when they did. It's essentially a stepping stone to full electric (as is the case for road cars) and at some point F1 will go electric. Otherwise, what will the kids watching in 20 years time make of it? It's going to be a bit much for them to see the pinnacle of motorsport using ICE when mum and dad's car already ditched such an old technology for electric power.

If F1 had started in the age of steam, would it have moved on to petrol when the rest of the world did? I think so.

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TheDeuce

1,424 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Deesee said:
It's interesting isn't it? We've lost the soundtrack of F1 but the cars are faster through a circuit, specifically through the corners. So many corners are now taken flat out, which as a spectacle is pretty impressive. Especially if we remind ourselves there's a human onboard feeling those forces yet remaining in control, remaining accurate too.

The new spectacle in F1, is cars and drivers nearing perfection. Any deviation from that goal, and they won't win. I find that pretty satisfying in its own way, but you do have to really pay attention to a teams ambition and development off track, in order to truly appreciate what they achieve on track.

Exige77

3,428 posts

132 months

Wednesday 15th May
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Eric Mc said:
Derek Smith said:
Good grief! That's a strange thing to post. I remember a one-car race, albeit with three cars in it. I can remember outrageous decisions by 'the management' that were partial and unfair. I can remember a team being allowed to cheat in pit stops, gaining an advantage for the drivers, but no one got anything more that a mild tutt, despite nearly burning down Germany. I can remember lots of times when motor racing was not only insulted but kicked when it was down.

The 2008 Spa race incident was arguable at best. KR pushed LH wide, in fact off the circuit, but he had a certain amount of justification to take the racing line. LH dropped back as far as anyone else did previously but he was faster along the home straight. I'm a fan of LH, although not exclusively, and yet I reckon that LH should have given the place back.

So arguable.

I could quote many instances that were, quite clearly, insults to F1.

I don't know what Todt's like. I don't know if he's a fair bloke. I don't know if he's in it for the money. What I do know is that F1 has changed for the better since he's been in charge. He's not kicked F1 in the teeth.
The Indy GP debacle where only a few cars ran a few laps was a disgrace.
I think it was only a few cars ran the whole race smile

The good ole days !!

Eric Mc

106,109 posts

206 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
I look on that as a fairly recent event so, for me, planted squarely in the modern "corporate" era.

Deesee

2,100 posts

24 months

Wednesday 15th May
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TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
It's interesting isn't it? We've lost the soundtrack of F1 but the cars are faster through a circuit, specifically through the corners. So many corners are now taken flat out, which as a spectacle is pretty impressive. Especially if we remind ourselves there's a human onboard feeling those forces yet remaining in control, remaining accurate too.

The new spectacle in F1, is cars and drivers nearing perfection. Any deviation from that goal, and they won't win. I find that pretty satisfying in its own way, but you do have to really pay attention to a teams ambition and development off track, in order to truly appreciate what they achieve on track.
Its hard to visualise just how quick these cars are compared to even 10 years ago, and how well they handle the 1000 hp!


budgie smuggler

3,606 posts

100 months

Wednesday 15th May
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TheDeuce said:
Paddle shift is hugely popular in road cars now. even in cars that really do not need them, simply because it's a cute selling point. Since about 2010 ZF have been selling an 8 speed box designed to deliver shifts on demand almost as fast as DSG, and the number of auto makers that have adopted it and added the paddles is insane. the advancement in auto-boxes speed this last decade, combined with the paddles, has bought drivers all the benefits of manual combined with all the benefits of auto. On the paddles it's easily quicker to swap cogs than having to change manually, the extra ratio's bring improved economy, the gearbox will always shift perfectly so no significant wear and tear. And you get paddles, which obviously appeals to a lot of passionate drivers! Paddle shift has been a huge success story in the industry - and in many cases it has genuinely improved the cars driving credentials.
I like paddles in a road car, but I'd argue that the paddle mechanism itself isn't really the innovation, it's the instant and seamless shifts.

Happy to be corrected but AFAIK no road car uses a system anything like the one(s) in F1, but rather a torque converter or dual clutch?

Eric Mc

106,109 posts

206 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
That's kind of what I was getting at. F1 is so unique in its requirements, the technology developed specifically for it has limited applications in the real world of day to day motoring.

TheDeuce

1,424 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
budgie smuggler said:
TheDeuce said:
Paddle shift is hugely popular in road cars now. even in cars that really do not need them, simply because it's a cute selling point. Since about 2010 ZF have been selling an 8 speed box designed to deliver shifts on demand almost as fast as DSG, and the number of auto makers that have adopted it and added the paddles is insane. the advancement in auto-boxes speed this last decade, combined with the paddles, has bought drivers all the benefits of manual combined with all the benefits of auto. On the paddles it's easily quicker to swap cogs than having to change manually, the extra ratio's bring improved economy, the gearbox will always shift perfectly so no significant wear and tear. And you get paddles, which obviously appeals to a lot of passionate drivers! Paddle shift has been a huge success story in the industry - and in many cases it has genuinely improved the cars driving credentials.
I like paddles in a road car, but I'd argue that the paddle mechanism itself isn't really the F1 innovation, it's the instant and seamless shifts.

Happy to be corrected but AFAIK no road car uses a system anything like the one(s) in F1, but rather a torque converter or dual clutch?
That's fair and so far as I know accurate. My point was in relation to the claim that paddle shift is 'hardly used in road cars'. Which was definitely incorrect!

As for where/when it started, I imagine it's just the inevitable obvious solution, so could have been imagined by several people at around the same time. Paddles just make sense.

I personally (my cars) used to be 100% in favour of manual, for the driver/performance benefits. These days there is no benefit though, at my best I couldn't swap cogs as fast as the auto - and if I did try it wouldn't be long before the box became a bit crunchy sounding! It's great to be able to move through the gears so rapidly on demand, and then let it slip back into auto mode when rolling along in traffic smile Glad you enjoy yours too.

Eric Mc

106,109 posts

206 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
What I was getting at is the lack of cross over technology. If the flappy paddles currently used on some road cars works on a different basis to the technology devised for F1, does that not support the case I was making?

TheDeuce

1,424 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
That's kind of what I was getting at. F1 is so unique in its requirements, the technology developed specifically for it has limited applications in the real world of day to day motoring.
I do agree with that. Very little directly trickles down to the real world. It's greatest power is to inspire design in road cars. If people see something like paddles or active suspension in F1 and think it's exciting and desirable, then it's only so long before an auto-maker starts to think about working something similar into their road cars - even if it's initially just for showing off rights. F1 has done the market research for them, they already know it will attract interest and help drive sales, so they figure out a way to apply vaguely the same concept in a way that makes sense in a road car.


TheDeuce

1,424 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
What I was getting at is the lack of cross over technology. If the flappy paddles currently used on some road cars works on a different basis to the technology devised for F1, does that not support the case I was making?
Not the way you made your case. I quoted you directly on the paddles, and you must admit that the statement I quoted was wrong. You're overall point, I do agree with.

Eric Mc

106,109 posts

206 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Eric Mc said:
What I was getting at is the lack of cross over technology. If the flappy paddles currently used on some road cars works on a different basis to the technology devised for F1, does that not support the case I was making?
Not the way you made your case. I quoted you directly on the paddles, and you must admit that the statement I quoted was wrong. You're overall point, I do agree with.
Yes - I was not accurate enough originally. However, the point I wanted to make stands. Flappy paddles as used in F1 have not impacted road cars.

No point in getting into a flap smile

ELUSIVEJIM

5,577 posts

92 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
What makes the Spanish GP so boring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUqTHApqLRE


TheDeuce

1,424 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Yes - I was not accurate enough originally. However, the point I wanted to make stands. Flappy paddles as used in F1 have not impacted road cars.

No point in getting into a flap smile
I think they have impacted road cars though - sorry! Yes, I agree that the technology is different. But the presence of paddle shifting in F1 has made the idea more desirable in road cars. It would have happened in any case (in road cars), but initially the use of paddles in F1 was used to make the idea of paddles more sexy in the first performance road cars that used them.

There is a difference between saying the technology doesn't transfer, and saying it has no impact on what is developed elsewhere, and how it is sold to the customer.

chunder27

1,871 posts

149 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
So relevancy wise modern F1 is largely perfect.

Hybrid power, not as much noise, hugely safe cars designed to be safe for drivers and other people. Drivers driving well within themselves to avoid incidents and only pushing where necessary.

Simply put you get what you wish for.

If F1 puts so much emphasis on manufacturers, this is what happens, it is unavoidable really.

cb1965

3,000 posts

86 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Road cars that use semi auto transmissions using a conventional clutch or clutches with electro-hydraulic actuators for actuation and gear selection are a direct descendent of Barnard's F1 gearbox. Since then F1 has moved on to seamless shifting dual barrel technology.