Official 2019 Spanish Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
Deesee said:
It's interesting isn't it? We've lost the soundtrack of F1 but the cars are faster through a circuit, specifically through the corners. So many corners are now taken flat out, which as a spectacle is pretty impressive. Especially if we remind ourselves there's a human onboard feeling those forces yet remaining in control, remaining accurate too.The new spectacle in F1, is cars and drivers nearing perfection. Any deviation from that goal, and they won't win. I find that pretty satisfying in its own way, but you do have to really pay attention to a teams ambition and development off track, in order to truly appreciate what they achieve on track.
Eric Mc said:
Derek Smith said:
Good grief! That's a strange thing to post. I remember a one-car race, albeit with three cars in it. I can remember outrageous decisions by 'the management' that were partial and unfair. I can remember a team being allowed to cheat in pit stops, gaining an advantage for the drivers, but no one got anything more that a mild tutt, despite nearly burning down Germany. I can remember lots of times when motor racing was not only insulted but kicked when it was down.
The 2008 Spa race incident was arguable at best. KR pushed LH wide, in fact off the circuit, but he had a certain amount of justification to take the racing line. LH dropped back as far as anyone else did previously but he was faster along the home straight. I'm a fan of LH, although not exclusively, and yet I reckon that LH should have given the place back.
So arguable.
I could quote many instances that were, quite clearly, insults to F1.
I don't know what Todt's like. I don't know if he's a fair bloke. I don't know if he's in it for the money. What I do know is that F1 has changed for the better since he's been in charge. He's not kicked F1 in the teeth.
The Indy GP debacle where only a few cars ran a few laps was a disgrace.The 2008 Spa race incident was arguable at best. KR pushed LH wide, in fact off the circuit, but he had a certain amount of justification to take the racing line. LH dropped back as far as anyone else did previously but he was faster along the home straight. I'm a fan of LH, although not exclusively, and yet I reckon that LH should have given the place back.
So arguable.
I could quote many instances that were, quite clearly, insults to F1.
I don't know what Todt's like. I don't know if he's a fair bloke. I don't know if he's in it for the money. What I do know is that F1 has changed for the better since he's been in charge. He's not kicked F1 in the teeth.
The good ole days !!
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
It's interesting isn't it? We've lost the soundtrack of F1 but the cars are faster through a circuit, specifically through the corners. So many corners are now taken flat out, which as a spectacle is pretty impressive. Especially if we remind ourselves there's a human onboard feeling those forces yet remaining in control, remaining accurate too.The new spectacle in F1, is cars and drivers nearing perfection. Any deviation from that goal, and they won't win. I find that pretty satisfying in its own way, but you do have to really pay attention to a teams ambition and development off track, in order to truly appreciate what they achieve on track.
TheDeuce said:
Paddle shift is hugely popular in road cars now. even in cars that really do not need them, simply because it's a cute selling point. Since about 2010 ZF have been selling an 8 speed box designed to deliver shifts on demand almost as fast as DSG, and the number of auto makers that have adopted it and added the paddles is insane. the advancement in auto-boxes speed this last decade, combined with the paddles, has bought drivers all the benefits of manual combined with all the benefits of auto. On the paddles it's easily quicker to swap cogs than having to change manually, the extra ratio's bring improved economy, the gearbox will always shift perfectly so no significant wear and tear. And you get paddles, which obviously appeals to a lot of passionate drivers! Paddle shift has been a huge success story in the industry - and in many cases it has genuinely improved the cars driving credentials.
I like paddles in a road car, but I'd argue that the paddle mechanism itself isn't really the innovation, it's the instant and seamless shifts.Happy to be corrected but AFAIK no road car uses a system anything like the one(s) in F1, but rather a torque converter or dual clutch?
budgie smuggler said:
TheDeuce said:
Paddle shift is hugely popular in road cars now. even in cars that really do not need them, simply because it's a cute selling point. Since about 2010 ZF have been selling an 8 speed box designed to deliver shifts on demand almost as fast as DSG, and the number of auto makers that have adopted it and added the paddles is insane. the advancement in auto-boxes speed this last decade, combined with the paddles, has bought drivers all the benefits of manual combined with all the benefits of auto. On the paddles it's easily quicker to swap cogs than having to change manually, the extra ratio's bring improved economy, the gearbox will always shift perfectly so no significant wear and tear. And you get paddles, which obviously appeals to a lot of passionate drivers! Paddle shift has been a huge success story in the industry - and in many cases it has genuinely improved the cars driving credentials.
I like paddles in a road car, but I'd argue that the paddle mechanism itself isn't really the F1 innovation, it's the instant and seamless shifts.Happy to be corrected but AFAIK no road car uses a system anything like the one(s) in F1, but rather a torque converter or dual clutch?
As for where/when it started, I imagine it's just the inevitable obvious solution, so could have been imagined by several people at around the same time. Paddles just make sense.
I personally (my cars) used to be 100% in favour of manual, for the driver/performance benefits. These days there is no benefit though, at my best I couldn't swap cogs as fast as the auto - and if I did try it wouldn't be long before the box became a bit crunchy sounding! It's great to be able to move through the gears so rapidly on demand, and then let it slip back into auto mode when rolling along in traffic
Glad you enjoy yours too.Eric Mc said:
That's kind of what I was getting at. F1 is so unique in its requirements, the technology developed specifically for it has limited applications in the real world of day to day motoring.
I do agree with that. Very little directly trickles down to the real world. It's greatest power is to inspire design in road cars. If people see something like paddles or active suspension in F1 and think it's exciting and desirable, then it's only so long before an auto-maker starts to think about working something similar into their road cars - even if it's initially just for showing off rights. F1 has done the market research for them, they already know it will attract interest and help drive sales, so they figure out a way to apply vaguely the same concept in a way that makes sense in a road car. Eric Mc said:
What I was getting at is the lack of cross over technology. If the flappy paddles currently used on some road cars works on a different basis to the technology devised for F1, does that not support the case I was making?
Not the way you made your case. I quoted you directly on the paddles, and you must admit that the statement I quoted was wrong. You're overall point, I do agree with.TheDeuce said:
Eric Mc said:
What I was getting at is the lack of cross over technology. If the flappy paddles currently used on some road cars works on a different basis to the technology devised for F1, does that not support the case I was making?
Not the way you made your case. I quoted you directly on the paddles, and you must admit that the statement I quoted was wrong. You're overall point, I do agree with.No point in getting into a flap
Eric Mc said:
Yes - I was not accurate enough originally. However, the point I wanted to make stands. Flappy paddles as used in F1 have not impacted road cars.
No point in getting into a flap
I think they have impacted road cars though - sorry! Yes, I agree that the technology is different. But the presence of paddle shifting in F1 has made the idea more desirable in road cars. It would have happened in any case (in road cars), but initially the use of paddles in F1 was used to make the idea of paddles more sexy in the first performance road cars that used them.No point in getting into a flap
There is a difference between saying the technology doesn't transfer, and saying it has no impact on what is developed elsewhere, and how it is sold to the customer.
So relevancy wise modern F1 is largely perfect.
Hybrid power, not as much noise, hugely safe cars designed to be safe for drivers and other people. Drivers driving well within themselves to avoid incidents and only pushing where necessary.
Simply put you get what you wish for.
If F1 puts so much emphasis on manufacturers, this is what happens, it is unavoidable really.
Hybrid power, not as much noise, hugely safe cars designed to be safe for drivers and other people. Drivers driving well within themselves to avoid incidents and only pushing where necessary.
Simply put you get what you wish for.
If F1 puts so much emphasis on manufacturers, this is what happens, it is unavoidable really.
cb1965 said:
Road cars that use semi auto transmissions using a conventional clutch or clutches with electro-hydraulic actuators for actuation and gear selection are a direct descendent of Barnard's F1 gearbox. Since then F1 has moved on to seamless shifting dual barrel technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAVi5budgie smuggler said:
cb1965 said:
Road cars that use semi auto transmissions using a conventional clutch or clutches with electro-hydraulic actuators for actuation and gear selection are a direct descendent of Barnard's F1 gearbox. Since then F1 has moved on to seamless shifting dual barrel technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAVi5That said, if you and your chum want to genuinely believe F1 and motorsport in general contributes nothing of value to road car technology then I'm not going to stand in your way as you are perfectly entitled to your opinions.
I think VW introducing DSG in 2003 was the real game-changer for road cars. That was inspired by the Porsche 962. Not having the driver take their hands off the wheel is only a natural evolution. I have a mate who prefers autos, but never touches his paddles.
Historically, sequential gears have been the standard for motorbikes and cycles. It is surprising that F1 was so slow to ditch Dog gears in favour of something more exotic. But what they have now is “from another planet” compared to road cars.
Historically, sequential gears have been the standard for motorbikes and cycles. It is surprising that F1 was so slow to ditch Dog gears in favour of something more exotic. But what they have now is “from another planet” compared to road cars.
Brawn 2009 vs Mercedes 2019 | Jenson Button analyses Spain pole laps!
The Mercedes looks so easy to drive. Obviously, it isn't but what a difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OPP7SBUTa8
The Mercedes looks so easy to drive. Obviously, it isn't but what a difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OPP7SBUTa8
rdjohn said:
I think VW introducing DSG in 2003 was the real game-changer for road cars. That was inspired by the Porsche 962. Not having the driver take their hands off the wheel is only a natural evolution. I have a mate who prefers autos, but never touches his paddles.
Yes, natural evolution. If F1 had never had shift paddles, I expect modern road cars still would have them. It simply makes sense to give the driver the option to choose their own gears, and steering wheel paddles are the most obvious way of giving that control.F1 certainly did it's bit to give the idea of paddles/power modes/start buttons and so on a bit of sex appeal. But all these things do in the end make sense and were bound to happen eventually, with or without F1. They probably happened a little sooner because of F1, and other forms of motor sport of course.
As for your mate, I guess most people don't actually use them
I use mine once or twice a week, but only when specifically going out for a b-road blast. The rest of the time, it's just treated like an other auto. It's really the best of both worlds.
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