Official 2019 Spanish Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official 2019 Spanish Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

budgie smuggler

3,606 posts

100 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
Road cars that use semi auto transmissions using a conventional clutch or clutches with electro-hydraulic actuators for actuation and gear selection are a direct descendent of Barnard's F1 gearbox. Since then F1 has moved on to seamless shifting dual barrel technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAVi5

cb1965

3,000 posts

86 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
budgie smuggler said:
cb1965 said:
Road cars that use semi auto transmissions using a conventional clutch or clutches with electro-hydraulic actuators for actuation and gear selection are a direct descendent of Barnard's F1 gearbox. Since then F1 has moved on to seamless shifting dual barrel technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAVi5
I think you're missing the point. A lot of technologies are designed and exist prior to motorsport taking them and improving them such that road car manufacturers then take those improvements and engineer them into road cars. The NAVi5 was hampered by the speed of the actuation due to the low spec computer used to control it and a lack of R&D. F1 improved the actuation speeds and methods immeasurably by using better control electronics and programming making subsequent road car application relatively cost effective and realistic.

That said, if you and your chum want to genuinely believe F1 and motorsport in general contributes nothing of value to road car technology then I'm not going to stand in your way as you are perfectly entitled to your opinions.

rdjohn

3,402 posts

136 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
I think VW introducing DSG in 2003 was the real game-changer for road cars. That was inspired by the Porsche 962. Not having the driver take their hands off the wheel is only a natural evolution. I have a mate who prefers autos, but never touches his paddles.

Historically, sequential gears have been the standard for motorbikes and cycles. It is surprising that F1 was so slow to ditch Dog gears in favour of something more exotic. But what they have now is “from another planet” compared to road cars.

ELUSIVEJIM

5,577 posts

92 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Brawn 2009 vs Mercedes 2019 | Jenson Button analyses Spain pole laps!

The Mercedes looks so easy to drive. Obviously, it isn't but what a difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OPP7SBUTa8

TheDeuce

1,423 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
I think VW introducing DSG in 2003 was the real game-changer for road cars. That was inspired by the Porsche 962. Not having the driver take their hands off the wheel is only a natural evolution. I have a mate who prefers autos, but never touches his paddles.
Yes, natural evolution. If F1 had never had shift paddles, I expect modern road cars still would have them. It simply makes sense to give the driver the option to choose their own gears, and steering wheel paddles are the most obvious way of giving that control.

F1 certainly did it's bit to give the idea of paddles/power modes/start buttons and so on a bit of sex appeal. But all these things do in the end make sense and were bound to happen eventually, with or without F1. They probably happened a little sooner because of F1, and other forms of motor sport of course.

As for your mate, I guess most people don't actually use them biggrin

I use mine once or twice a week, but only when specifically going out for a b-road blast. The rest of the time, it's just treated like an other auto. It's really the best of both worlds.
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snowen250

919 posts

124 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Some interesting points.

In terms of where F1 cars are to go in the future i think we, as fans, as well as the governing body actually have a pretty difficult decision to make.

Do we want F1 to be:

A:
The fastest, most advanced, most impressive racing cars on the planet

or

B:
The best, most exciting race series on the planet.

As to me, the two simply cannot go hand in hand. We have today the technology to make F1 cars supremely powerful, reliable and aerodynamically efficient. This does not promote good racing. Evidence of this can be seen on a smaller scale up and down the motorsport world. Just the other week at Brands Hatch we had Blancpain GT cars on the bill. The big quick GT3 cars were lapping at some awesome speeds, the spectacle out in the countryside was superb (blah blah catch fencing GP loop blah) but the races itself, were dull.

The GT4 race however for more basic GTs cars? Superb. Close racing, as the cars have smaller brakes and less aero, so can follow each other and out brake each other.

So what do we want F1 to be, close racing at mega speed, with cars lapping ever faster?

or shall we essentially put the entire field into FF1600 cars and watch some amazing racing in cars with more power then grip, poor aero etc?

I know which i would choose. And after Spain, a race i turned off to watch football (something i am frankly astonished at) it cannot come soon enough.

ELUSIVEJIM

5,577 posts

92 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
I think VW introducing DSG in 2003 was the real game-changer for road cars. That was inspired by the Porsche 962. Not having the driver take their hands off the wheel is only a natural evolution. I have a mate who prefers autos, but never touches his paddles.

Historically, sequential gears have been the standard for motorbikes and cycles. It is surprising that F1 was so slow to ditch Dog gears in favour of something more exotic. But what they have now is “from another planet” compared to road cars.
I remember the Audi S1 Evo 2 Group B rally car having a DSG system at the end of 1985.

Presume the Porsche 962 system was slightly earlier?

I think this was the first rally it was entered as a test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFEdIu5N3p0&t=...

Deesee

2,099 posts

24 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Someone was after Norris first lap..

https://streamable.com/wicjt

Eric Mc

106,105 posts

206 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
I think they have impacted road cars though - sorry! Yes, I agree that the technology is different. But the presence of paddle shifting in F1 has made the idea more desirable in road cars. It would have happened in any case (in road cars), but initially the use of paddles in F1 was used to make the idea of paddles more sexy in the first performance road cars that used them.

There is a difference between saying the technology doesn't transfer, and saying it has no impact on what is developed elsewhere, and how it is sold to the customer.
That's a marketing influence rather than a technological one - which I would not argue against. After all, sponsors are very hopeful that the marketing power of F1 will work for them.

rdjohn

3,402 posts

136 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Someone was after Norris first lap..

https://streamable.com/wicjt
It was me, thanks for that.

Deesee

2,099 posts

24 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
Deesee said:
Someone was after Norris first lap..

https://streamable.com/wicjt
It was me, thanks for that.
thumbup

Mr Tidy

8,264 posts

68 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
I think VW introducing DSG in 2003 was the real game-changer for road cars. That was inspired by the Porsche 962. Not having the driver take their hands off the wheel is only a natural evolution. I have a mate who prefers autos, but never touches his paddles.

Historically, sequential gears have been the standard for motorbikes and cycles. It is surprising that F1 was so slow to ditch Dog gears in favour of something more exotic. But what they have now is “from another planet” compared to road cars.
Really!

Motorbikes have had sequential gearboxes since the 60s or beyond!

BTCC cars had them in the 90s, so it took VAG an awful long time to "invent" them with the DSG - just how much do DSG clutches cost out of interest?

I'll stick to a manual gearbox thanks!




rdjohn

3,402 posts

136 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
Mr Tidy said:
rdjohn said:
I think VW introducing DSG in 2003 was the real game-changer for road cars. That was inspired by the Porsche 962. Not having the driver take their hands off the wheel is only a natural evolution. I have a mate who prefers autos, but never touches his paddles.

Historically, sequential gears have been the standard for motorbikes and cycles. It is surprising that F1 was so slow to ditch Dog gears in favour of something more exotic. But what they have now is “from another planet” compared to road cars.
Really!

Motorbikes have had sequential gearboxes since the 60s or beyond!

BTCC cars had them in the 90s, so it took VAG an awful long time to "invent" them with the DSG - just how much do DSG clutches cost out of interest?

I'll stick to a manual gearbox thanks!
The Xtrac (BTCC) sequential gearbox is not a twin dual-clutch DSG like the concept that VW introduced into their road cars.

https://www.xtrac.com/product/p427-p545-p559-in-li...

Derek Smith

33,181 posts

189 months

Friday 17th May
quotequote all
Mr Tidy said:
I'll stick to a manual gearbox thanks!
I've got a problem with my left leg and I can't declutch more than a few times on a journey. I've had to go auto for some years now.

I had a 7-speed auto with flappies on a 350 SLK. It made nonsense of manual changes. If you wanted to enjoy the power, you were forever changing gear. It was quicker to leave it in full auto. I used the paddles when on a corner as any change up near the apex used to unsettle the car a bit, and unsettle me a lot more, but apart from long hill climbs, that was the only use for the manual change.

I now prefer auto now. Most boxes have a manual override without the complexity of paddles. It is surprising how infrequently I use mine.

I drove a Prius. That was a bit odd as the engine seemed to stay at very narrow rev range. It was a bit like a DAF 55 a girlfriend used to drive.

But each to their own. I'm sure that if I had a left leg that worked properly I would have stuck with manual change - as well as not selling my TVR - but modern autos are pretty good.