Kubica - nostalgia vs reality?.... (but £££)

Kubica - nostalgia vs reality?.... (but £££)

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trackdemon

Original Poster:

10,250 posts

202 months

Tuesday 14th May
quotequote all
It makes for a great story doesn't it? F1 driver tipped for WC status has his career cruelly taken from him during some extra curricular driving, thanks to a horrific hand injury. Several years later, having adapted his driving style, he returns and proves that he's still 'got it', using his guile and experience to sweep aside his teammate and drag a poor car into positions it has no right to populate....

Except the story goes awry at the last sentence: 5 races in, Kubica has been roundly beaten by his rookie teammate, being outqualified and finishing behind him in the race every time thus far, always with a slower fastest race lap. Sometimes by notably big margins. Another driver in another team, this would be pretty damning stuff. It would be wonderful if he could turn it around, but right now it's looking like another poor decision by Williams....

TheDeuce

1,482 posts

7 months

Tuesday 14th May
quotequote all
trackdemon said:
It makes for a great story doesn't it? F1 driver tipped for WC status has his career cruelly taken from him during some extra curricular driving, thanks to a horrific hand injury. Several years later, having adapted his driving style, he returns and proves that he's still 'got it', using his guile and experience to sweep aside his teammate and drag a poor car into positions it has no right to populate....

Except the story goes awry at the last sentence: 5 races in, Kubica has been roundly beaten by his rookie teammate, being outqualified and finishing behind him in the race every time thus far, always with a slower fastest race lap. Sometimes by notably big margins. Another driver in another team, this would be pretty damning stuff. It would be wonderful if he could turn it around, but right now it's looking like another poor decision by Williams....
I'm not going to reply here as this has been done to death on the Williams thread. Well, I say done to death - it's still ongoing actually!

I'd head over to that thread if you want all the opinions..

trackdemon

Original Poster:

10,250 posts

202 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
trackdemon said:
It makes for a great story doesn't it? F1 driver tipped for WC status has his career cruelly taken from him during some extra curricular driving, thanks to a horrific hand injury. Several years later, having adapted his driving style, he returns and proves that he's still 'got it', using his guile and experience to sweep aside his teammate and drag a poor car into positions it has no right to populate....

Except the story goes awry at the last sentence: 5 races in, Kubica has been roundly beaten by his rookie teammate, being outqualified and finishing behind him in the race every time thus far, always with a slower fastest race lap. Sometimes by notably big margins. Another driver in another team, this would be pretty damning stuff. It would be wonderful if he could turn it around, but right now it's looking like another poor decision by Williams....
I'm not going to reply here as this has been done to death on the Williams thread. Well, I say done to death - it's still ongoing actually!

I'd head over to that thread if you want all the opinions..
The Williams thread covers a multitude of things! Thought this was worth its own post...

sandman77

1,533 posts

79 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
To save a 100 posts from various people arguing I will sum it up here.

Some people believe that:
RK’s chassis doesn’t handle as well as GR’s.
RK’s chassis doesn’t even handle as well as GR’s replacement chassis that he has been using since he smashed his car up in Baku.
Williams are not providing the drivers with identical equipment.

Other people (including me) believe that:
RK is not as fast as GR.


TheDeuce

1,482 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
sandman77 said:
To save a 100 posts from various people arguing I will sum it up here.

Some people believe that:
RK’s chassis doesn’t handle as well as GR’s.
RK’s chassis doesn’t even handle as well as GR’s replacement chassis that he has been using since he smashed his car up in Baku.
Williams are not providing the drivers with identical equipment.

Other people (including me) believe that:
RK is not as fast as GR.
You see, if you had read the Williams chat (what a thread that has become!!) you would know that actually, RK now has GR's old chassis! To in theory eliminate that particular excuse for his constant lesser pace. Yet other excuses come in.

But yes, in the world of reasonable thinking, he's consistently slower so it's entirely reasonable to conclude at this point, that he's simply not as fast today as Russell. That's really the end of the debate, it can't go any further without outright proof, and we will never have that.



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rallycross

9,905 posts

178 months

Wednesday 15th May
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Open your eyes you dummy. Its all about the car.

George was given a good run in testing in the 2019 Mercedes and guess what ? He was fastest in that test. Based on their lap times in their soap box Williams then If RK had been given a good run in that 2019 Mercedes he would most likely have been fastest in that test as well.

Its all about the car, as it always has been for the last 30 years in F1.

The Williams drivers are driving around the back of the grid in a car that's almost as bad as those st box Hispania's that turned up and could not even complete practice at round 1. It will not make any difference who is driving - its going to be last all year long.


TheDeuce

1,482 posts

7 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
Yea.. this thread will either disappear, or become a massive argument. That's my prediction.

Another prediction? Yes, the disabled and decade out of date/practice driver is indeed fractionally slower than the new, race bred boy. Who could have guessed? It's all totally irrelevant though. RK got the sponsorship to buy that seat and he wanted it, largely for personal reasons. He was robbed of an F1 career back in the day, now he has managed to return - it's a personal win for him. It's also a PR win for Williams. I'm sure that he's intelligent enough himself to understand as much.

I think it's really great that we live in a time where it is possible for RK to return to a sport such as F1. But being realistic, even without the disability, just being 8 years out of the sport would make him a poor bet in competitive terms. But that's also irrelevant in a totally non competitive car. He might as well be there, as much as any other driver might as well be in that seat. Drop Hamilton into it and it's not going to go meaningfully faster. At least RK's return was inspirational, which will inspire others in an unfortunate situation to chin up and carry on. It's not very 'F1' but in the end he's the most positive thing about Williams in 2019. I'm sure they and he were well aware of that.

rallycross

9,905 posts

178 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Yea.. this thread will either disappear, or become a massive argument. That's my prediction.


. But being realistic, even without the disability, just being 8 years out of the sport would make him a poor bet in competitive terms. But that's also irrelevant in a totally non competitive car. He might as well be there, as much as any other driver might as well be in that seat. Drop Hamilton into it and it's not going to go meaningfully faster. At least RK's return was inspirational, which will inspire others in an unfortunate situation to chin up and carry on..
Well said - and I think 100% correct. clap

trackdemon

Original Poster:

10,250 posts

202 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
rallycross said:
Open your eyes you dummy. Its all about the car.

George was given a good run in testing in the 2019 Mercedes and guess what ? He was fastest in that test. Based on their lap times in their soap box Williams then If RK had been given a good run in that 2019 Mercedes he would most likely have been fastest in that test as well.

Its all about the car, as it always has been for the last 30 years in F1.

The Williams drivers are driving around the back of the grid in a car that's almost as bad as those st box Hispania's that turned up and could not even complete practice at round 1. It will not make any difference who is driving - its going to be last all year long.
Nobody is arguing the car is slow, and lets face it, it's not going to jump forward 4 spots on the grid let alone 10. But job numero uno is to beat your teammate, which is what the OP refers to....

trackdemon

Original Poster:

10,250 posts

202 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Yes, the disabled and decade out of date/practice driver is indeed fractionally slower than the new, race bred boy. Who could have guessed? It's all totally irrelevant though. RK got the sponsorship to buy that seat and he wanted it, largely for personal reasons. He was robbed of an F1 career back in the day, now he has managed to return - it's a personal win for him. It's also a PR win for Williams. I'm sure that he's intelligent enough himself to understand as much.
It's a nice story, sure. But should someone get a seat ahead of young up & coming drivers on the basis of nostalgia despite being substantially slower than their rookie teammate? I thought F1 was in the cut throat business of fastest first (if you've got the wallet - I'll be plenty others did as well as RK).

thegreenhell

5,486 posts

160 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
rallycross said:
Open your eyes you dummy. Its all about the car.

George was given a good run in testing in the 2019 Mercedes and guess what ? He was fastest in that test. Based on their lap times in their soap box Williams then If RK had been given a good run in that 2019 Mercedes he would most likely have been fastest in that test as well.

Its all about the car, as it always has been for the last 30 years in F1.

The Williams drivers are driving around the back of the grid in a car that's almost as bad as those st box Hispania's that turned up and could not even complete practice at round 1. It will not make any difference who is driving - its going to be last all year long.
This is true. Both drivers have said that the car is difficult to drive and unpredictable near the limit. I don't think it matters which driver is in which chassis. RK said the two cars were different, not that one was better than the other.

It might be valid to draw conclusions about the relative speed of each driver if they were in a competitive cat, fighting for points or wins, but in their current predicament I feel it's rather moot. Some people just seem to like constantly criticising certain drivers on the internet, almost as if it makes them feel better about their own stty lives.

TheDeuce

1,482 posts

7 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
This is true. Both drivers have said that the car is difficult to drive and unpredictable near the limit. I don't think it matters which driver is in which chassis. RK said the two cars were different, not that one was better than the other.

It might be valid to draw conclusions about the relative speed of each driver if they were in a competitive cat, fighting for points or wins, but in their current predicament I feel it's rather moot. Some people just seem to like constantly criticising certain drivers on the internet, almost as if it makes them feel better about their own stty lives.
I think I agree with you on most of that. The last bit though.. I think it's more a case of sensible people being fed up of other people constantly making excuses for a driver.

If it were any other driver pairing, based on the results to date, the vast majority would be perfectly happy to accept that in all probability, the slowest driver, is just the slowest driver.

I don't know why it's become such a point of contention, it should be, as you say, more or less irrelevant in any case.