Official 2019 British Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official 2019 British Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Mr Pointy said:
TobyTR said:
Sorry Derek, but I don't think fans will look back on this season and say they were sorry to have missed it live - far from it.

Lets not forget this is still the most dominant 1-2 season in 31 years, and the fact we can still 100% predict the podium every race that it will consist of Merc/Ferrari/Red Bull. Much more often than not, two Mercs and one Ferrari or RB....

That is not a successful season - that is a failure in the system and regulations to allow it to get to that level of predictability and lack of competition.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, Austria and Silverstone were decent and entertaining, but that was more down to the battles between Max, Charles and Seb and the controversial moves.

What makes a great season is competition (fight for the championships), unpredictability and entertainment.

Right now, we only just have entertainment at a select handful of races. Both championships are a foregone conclusion and the podiums are predictable. That's not the hallmark of a potential great season.
Can you nominate a season (or two) which you feel satisfy your criteria for bring sucessful?
There is no such season.

And whilst there may not be a competition for the championship, the championship is just one result. Right now the most fascinating story is Red Bull arguably out-performing Ferrari, at least so far as the cars are concerned, Gasly has let the points side down a little... But looking away from the points the reality is Max has been out-performing either Ferrari driver. that's a Red Bull besting a Ferrari in a season where Ferrari were supposed to be battling Mercedes. Then we have the struggle of Renault, the first signs of resurgence at McLaren, the great tragedy that is Williams..

If you look at what's actually playing out other than Mercedes dominance, it's been a very interesting season. And even if you are only capable of paying attention to whoever wins, at least the current dominant team and driver are going above and beyond a typical dominant spell - they're at the point of breaking records each weekend and on the cusp of breaking certain records that many of us doubted we would ever see broken. At least if they're being boring, they're managing to be boring in the most spectacular way possible wink
That's easy

1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2012 - take your pick

2012 was one of my favourites. Lord, some people have short memories

TheDeuce

21,128 posts

65 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
That's easy

1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2012 - take your pick

2012 was one of my favourites. Lord, some people have short memories
And some people see only the headline excitement of each season. There is a lot going on this season, none of it needs to be diminished by the fact we already know who's taking the trophies home at the end.

I can't expect you to enjoy something if you don't of course. I also have 2012 as a fond year in our sport, but for different reasons I'm no less engaged this year.

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
But when a sport becomes predictable many fans will (and do) switch off.

As i said for it to be a classic, it needs to be unpredictable, entertaining and competitive.

If F1 Racing conducted a poll on the most popular championships over the last 20 years I guarantee this year would be at the bottom. The only fans classing this as great are those who want to see Mercedes and Hamilton break all the records, which is fair enough.

Historically, dominant teams have had an average of 4-5 years before FIA brought in new regulations to change things up. Ferrari had 5 years, Red Bull had 4 years. Mercedes currently have over 6 years and will have had 8 years before regulations are changed.

TheDeuce

21,128 posts

65 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
But when a sport becomes predictable many fans will (and do) switch off.

As i said for it to be a classic, it needs to be unpredictable, entertaining and competitive.

If F1 Racing conducted a poll on the most popular championships over the last 20 years I guarantee this year would be at the bottom. The only fans classing this as great are those who want to see Mercedes and Hamilton break all the records, which is fair enough.

Historically, dominant teams have had an average of 4-5 years before FIA brought in new regulations to change things up. Ferrari had 5 years, Red Bull had 4 years. Mercedes currently have over 6 years and will have had 8 years before regulations are changed.
Many fans apparently do like F1. Attendance is on the up and globally TV figures do seem to be very strong - hard to make a direct comparison with the past on that point as Bernie's viewing figures were a little disingenuous..

I see we won't agree - I can speak only for myself:

- Unpredictable: We expected a hot Ferrari vs Mercedes battle, in the end Mercedes took 5 consecutive 1-2's and Ferrari are stuck battling with Red Bull, who have a car that could be said to be superior this season.

- Entertaining: For the first time in a few years there is a lot of overtaking and whilst it's not as raw and punchy as past era's, the modern, precise cars do at least allow for lap after lap of very tight wheel to wheel action on occasion. For me, the fact it doesn't happen as often as I might wish makes it all the more exciting when it does happen. When it's not happening, I find the technical marvel of the Mercedes car to be pretty exciting in it's own right - although I am an engineer, so I suppose I'm biased.

- Competitive: It is forever hugely competitive. Sometimes competitiveness yields a close race, but it's no less competitive if the will to compete and win has led Mercedes to push hard enough to be dominant. I can't think of a sporting way to improve on that outcome - they tried hardest, it's a sport, they get the prize. They tried very hard this season after Ferrari made some progress last season, hence - they win. They have been supremely competitive, so much so that they hardly need to worry about Ferrari anymore.

vdn

8,903 posts

202 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
But when a sport becomes predictable many fans will (and do) switch off.

As i said for it to be a classic, it needs to be unpredictable, entertaining and competitive.

If F1 Racing conducted a poll on the most popular championships over the last 20 years I guarantee this year would be at the bottom. The only fans classing this as great are those who want to see Mercedes and Hamilton break all the records, which is fair enough.

Historically, dominant teams have had an average of 4-5 years before FIA brought in new regulations to change things up. Ferrari had 5 years, Red Bull had 4 years. Mercedes currently have over 6 years and will have had 8 years before regulations are changed.
I don’t get why people like you watch... is it just to moan and complain after every race? Fair enough the Mercedes dominance seals the deal (for the most part) with regard who wins; but the best driver in the best car will tend to do that. As it always has done. But the battles down the field; McLaren creeping up; Max and CLC showing us what the future holds. I think it’s utterly brilliant and it seems millions of others do too. Sorry but you don’t speak for everyone with your doom and gloom.

I was at Silverstone last weekend and the atmosphere was electric. It was sold out; even the motorway signs an hour before arrival had to make that clear, as there were still people turning up.

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
I wouldn't believe F1's own viewing figures that were put out in a press release either, which were debunked not long ago.

Competitiveness in F1 isn't just about working very hard though, is it. Otherwise RacingPoint would be regularly on the podium... Mercedes are hugely competitive to the point of dominance, but that does not mean F1 has healthy competition for WDCs and WCCs.

If people don't moan when there are weaknesses in something, then there won't be improvements - that's life. even Ross Brawn and Brundle often mention what's wrong and have a good moan... Absolutely nothing wrong with that and we are free to vent if we like. I'm FAR from the only one on PH mentioning F1's shortcomings, especially outside the UK smile I merely mentioned that it's not a great season that will go down as a classic. We've had two entertaining races in a row, fingers-crossed for more.

Silverstone was always going to be a sell-out - it's Hamilton/Mercedes-mania and rightly so.

The potential is there for it to get better in the future, but we need to be honest with ourselves with what's going on. The gulf is still far too big.

Would you honestly feel the same if the 2005 regs didn't happen for a couple more years and the hybrid engines got delayed until 2017... thus Ferrari and Red Bull dominating for over 6+ years? Lets have it right, plenty of people had enough after only 4 years back then

angrymoby

2,597 posts

177 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
That's easy

1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2012 - take your pick

2012 was one of my favourites. Lord, some people have short memories
& some even shorter, because 88 & 89 would surpass all the above for most folk on here i reckon

so i'd suggest it isn't team dominance folk are turned off by ...it's by racing drivers not being allowed to race (which is a catch 22 in a sport with team orders, that can't be banned - because it's errrr ....a team sport)

Derek Smith

45,459 posts

247 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
Sorry Derek, but I don't think fans will look back on this season and say they were sorry to have missed it live - far from it.

Lets not forget this is still the most dominant 1-2 season in 31 years, and the fact we can still 100% predict the podium every race that it will consist of Merc/Ferrari/Red Bull. Much more often than not, two Mercs and one Ferrari or RB....

That is not a successful season - that is a failure in the system and regulations to allow it to get to that level of predictability and lack of competition.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, Austria and Silverstone were decent and entertaining, but that was more down to the battles between Max, Charles and Seb and the controversial moves.

What makes a great season is competition (fight for the championships), unpredictability and entertainment.

Right now, we only just have entertainment at a select handful of races. Both championships are a foregone conclusion and the podiums are predictable. That's not the hallmark of a potential great season.
When has it been any different? One of the most remarkable seasons I remember, one that got me planning my work shifts around the GPs, was where every race but one was won by McLaren.

I think the point with Silverstone in particular is that it was clean racing in the main.

You suggest, as if it was fact, that the competition is all about the championships. I disagree. The WDC and WCC are constructs. There are immaterial. It is the racing that’s the thing.

You also say that only a select handful of races have been entertaining. By that, I assume you mean challenges for position. As I said, we’ve had three great races this season already. That’s about the norm for a season. Baku was an absolute classic, the type that most people think of, but can’t name, as the good old days. There was an exciting start, a fascinating middle and an unpredictable end. Lots of pathos as well. When was the last time this happened?

The fight for the lead is only one aspect of F1. There’s much more going on.

This season we have Leclerk, one of the exciting new faces, improving as a driver in front of our eyes. If that’s not entertaining, then there’s no point in any sport. We have the acknowledged best young driver, in his RB, which is just as fast as the Ferrari, being challenged by a newbie. That’s cool.

We also have what is possibly the last season of a four times WDC. He seems to be disintegrating before our eyes. Entertaining is the wrong word, but it is riveting TV. More pathos.

We have the oft written off McLaren coming back, if not to the front, then challenging for the second tier lead. But they haven’t got it sewn up as Renault seem to have sorted their problems.

We also see Williams, one of the great teams, having outpointed Ferrari for years back in the days, not so much in the doldrums, but below it.

If you can’t see how good this season is then I wonder why you watch F1. Do you watch F1? You should. It’s great.

vdn

8,903 posts

202 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
I wouldn't believe F1's own viewing figures that were put out in a press release either, which were debunked not long ago.

Competitiveness in F1 isn't just about working very hard though, is it. Otherwise RacingPoint would be regularly on the podium... Mercedes are hugely competitive to the point of dominance, but that does not mean F1 has healthy competition for WDCs and WCCs.

If people don't moan when there are weaknesses in something, then there won't be improvements - that's life. even Ross Brawn and Brundle often mention what's wrong and have a good moan... Absolutely nothing wrong with that and we are free to vent if we like. I'm FAR from the only one on PH mentioning F1's shortcomings, especially outside the UK smile I merely mentioned that it's not a great season that will go down as a classic...
You’re ignoring the fact that they also give credit where due. Brundle / Button et al, all raved about the Britain GP; Button said it was one of the best ever. They can point to F1’s issues but still enjoy a great race.

You can’t.

HustleRussell

24,599 posts

159 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
...Dominance...
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Mercedes' performance for the best part of the V6TH era as 'dominance'. They have been truly dominant at times but generally the margin is measured in tenths and rarely as much as half a second. What we have in my opinion is a perfect storm of;
  • Technical advantage
  • Technical reliability
  • Driver reliability
  • Consistent execution
It bothered me for a while just as Vettel's streak did, however as time has gone on I have come to appreciate that we are seeing history being made by the Hamilton / Mercedes combination. You could increasingly make a case for both parts of that combination being the best ever. In my view they have done it without cheating, foul play, preferential driver treatment, excessive team orders...

We are still getting great races.

What we see on here in my opinion is the long-observed British disease of resentment for other people's success.

HustleRussell

24,599 posts

159 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
Leclerk
Leclerc.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Derek Smith said:
Leclerk
Leclerc.
Hmm, where's that name from. Sounds south of France-ish. Just can't place it...

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Mercedes' performance for the best part of the V6TH era as 'dominance'.
You don't think winning 5 consecutive driver and constructor world championships is dominance? I can't think of any other way to describe it.

F1 is by its nature measured in fractions. In the early 2000s Ferrari weren't always the winners, nor were Red Bull during their years at the top. What those two and the current period delivered though was race and championship wins with a dominant consistency. Whether the win is by 3 tenths or 4 minutes doesn't really matter- it's the team's ability to deliver the result most of the time.

That's why I'd say the Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes team/car/drivers really have dominated their respective periods.

M3ax

1,291 posts

211 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Mercedes' performance for the best part of the V6TH era as 'dominance'. They have been truly dominant at times but generally the margin is measured in tenths and rarely as much as half a second. What we have in my opinion is a perfect storm of;
  • Technical advantage
  • Technical reliability
  • Driver reliability
  • Consistent execution
It bothered me for a while just as Vettel's streak did, however as time has gone on I have come to appreciate that we are seeing history being made by the Hamilton / Mercedes combination. You could increasingly make a case for both parts of that combination being the best ever. In my view they have done it without cheating, foul play, preferential driver treatment, excessive team orders...

We are still getting great races.

What we see on here in my opinion is the long-observed British disease of resentment for other people's success.
Nicely put . Mirrors my thoughts exactly.

RichB

51,383 posts

283 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
M3ax said:
HustleRussell said:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Mercedes' performance for the best part of the V6TH era as 'dominance'. They have been truly dominant at times but generally the margin is measured in tenths and rarely as much as half a second. What we have in my opinion is a perfect storm of;
  • Technical advantage
  • Technical reliability
  • Driver reliability
  • Consistent execution
It bothered me for a while just as Vettel's streak did, however as time has gone on I have come to appreciate that we are seeing history being made by the Hamilton / Mercedes combination. You could increasingly make a case for both parts of that combination being the best ever. In my view they have done it without cheating, foul play, preferential driver treatment, excessive team orders...

We are still getting great races.

What we see on here in my opinion is the long-observed British disease of resentment for other people's success.
Nicely put . Mirrors my thoughts exactly.
Indeed. yes

kambites

67,442 posts

220 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
You don't think winning 5 consecutive driver and constructor world championships is dominance? I can't think of any other way to describe it.
Personally I'd define dominance as "continuously winning with no realistic competition" rather than just "continuously winning" so I'd say Mercedes were dominant in 14, 15, 16 and (so far) 19 but not in 17 or 18.

BrettMRC

4,009 posts

159 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
RichB said:
M3ax said:
HustleRussell said:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Mercedes' performance for the best part of the V6TH era as 'dominance'. They have been truly dominant at times but generally the margin is measured in tenths and rarely as much as half a second. What we have in my opinion is a perfect storm of;
  • Technical advantage
  • Technical reliability
  • Driver reliability
  • Consistent execution
It bothered me for a while just as Vettel's streak did, however as time has gone on I have come to appreciate that we are seeing history being made by the Hamilton / Mercedes combination. You could increasingly make a case for both parts of that combination being the best ever. In my view they have done it without cheating, foul play, preferential driver treatment, excessive team orders...

We are still getting great races.

What we see on here in my opinion is the long-observed British disease of resentment for other people's success.
Nicely put . Mirrors my thoughts exactly.
Indeed. yes
Quite.

There is nothing wrong with watching brilliance at work.

Mercedes are to be appluaded; the other teams need to catch up.

HustleRussell

24,599 posts

159 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
HustleRussell said:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to call Mercedes' performance for the best part of the V6TH era as 'dominance'.
You don't think winning 5 consecutive driver and constructor world championships is dominance? I can't think of any other way to describe it.
Superiority.

What I think of as 'dominance' tends to come about due to a massive technical advantage e.g. Williams' active suspension.

Andy S15

399 posts

126 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
BrettMRC said:
Quite.

There is nothing wrong with watching brilliance at work.

Mercedes are to be appluaded; the other teams need to catch up.
Agree. A lot of the emotion directed towards Merc for being too dominant should be more focused towards the other teams who are doing a poor job. Ferrari particularly (whether the drivers, car, team or a combination of) have done a particularly poor job in recent years and have gone backwards this year.

I don't feel annoyance towards Mercedes. I did feel annoyance towards Ferrari and MSC's era - as they at times used what could have been deemed dirty/questionable tactics and I felt annoyance towards RB and Vettel's era as the team were a bit arrogant and constantly screwed over their number 2. You can't really level these criticisms at Merc and Hamilton and you have to admire that generally speaking they are allowed to race each other properly.

Edited by Andy S15 on Wednesday 17th July 12:39

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
To me there's a difference between being dominant because of "underhand" engineering. E.g. flexible floors, flexible noses, and wings designed to pass the test, but not meet the written rules. (So that's some of Ferrari and Red Bull's years).

Or dominance because you simply did a better job within the rules. E.g. Williams Active suspension and Merc party mode/suspension geometry design etc.

If Merc were doing something underhand it would ruin it and they'd be like Red Bull/Ferrari and it'd all be very irritating again. But there's not even the suggestion that they are as far as I've heard.