History of the current F1 teams

[StevieBee]

There used to be a chap famous for Rock Family Trees - handwritten and drawn charts that mapped the lineage of bands back to the beginnings of each member of that band. Would be an interesting exercise to do the same for the key people in the current F1 teams - plot where they came into the sport - where they crossed over with others and the like. Would me a monumental task though!

[heebeegeetee]

The Surveyor said:

Mercedes pulled out of F1 GP racing in 1955 after one of their cars infamously ploughed through the crowd at Le Mans killing some 84 people. They dabbled successfully under the Sauber name in sports car racing but when they ran under the 'Mercedes' name in 1999, their cars famously flipped due to dodgy aero. Hardly an excellent track record.

In pure F1, they needed a leg-up from Brawn before returning only 10 years ago, so again it's difficult to see them as a 'key player' despite their recent dominance.

Whoa, that can't be left without comment. "Infamous" - well known for some bad quality or deed. wicked; abominable.

In terms of Mercedes involvement, they simply built the car that was crashed into the crowd. They played no part whatsoever, over and above anyone else, in causing the accident.

If you do want to point or wag a finger in someone's direction, (and god knows why after all this time), then it has to go in the direction of Mike Hawthorn and Jaguar. Even then though, the accident was of its time, with poor track design, cars with disc brakes mixing it with cars on drum brakes, etc etc.

The only "bad deed" imo was that Jaguar did not also pull out of the race, and instead went on to an utterly hollow victory. Hawthorn's demeanor after the race was in contrast to both the events that had occurred, and immediately after the accident when he was running around in tears blaming himself.

I don't know if you are aware also, but due to comments made the other surviving driver in the accident, Lance Macklin, was preparing to sue Mike Hawthorn but then Hawthorn died anyway and so we learnt no more.

It was indeed unfortunate that decades later it was Mercs that were taking to the air; it is also worth remembering that a lot of drivers have been killed and seriously hurt at Le Mans, but not by those flipping Mercs.

Mercs record in F1 and motor sport generally IS excellent, absolutely excellent. They were great in the pioneering days, they were great in the 1930s, the 1950s, the modern Merc F1 team is just brilliant imo, the very embodiment of excellence imo. They are to be wholeheartedly congratulated.

ETA: Some interesting stuff here about 1955: http://www.dailysportscar.com/2013/04/27/le-mans-1...

Edited by heebeegeetee on Tuesday 20th August 13:32

[sgtBerbatov]

TheDeuce said:

Supersam83 said:

Yes when I created the thread it was for the current F1 teams.

Enjoying reading all the input from everyone regarding the history of the teams.

Don't some of the current F1 teams still pay to use the Toyota F1 wind tunnel now as it is known to be one of the best in the world?

I think some of the cars we see on the grid are designed with help from the Toyota wind tunnel.

I can actually see Toyota coming back into F1 soon as they have won Le Mans and will be enticed by the Hybrid engines.

Toyota or some other manufacturer - likely when Mercedes bow out. Assuming under the up-coming budget caps they can still find a supposedly 'surefire' way in that will turn their resources in to results.

I'm not so sure it would be Toyota, simply because these days their range of cars is heavily weighted to 'green' which admittedly in theory meshes with the hybrid F1 philosophy, but I don't imagine the average Toyota customer is very likely to be a motorsport fan these days. They don't do very much on the performance motoring side in their road car range at all now, unlike in the 90's/early 00's.

So why are they in rallying and the WEC?

[TheDeuce]

sgtBerbatov said:

So why are they in rallying and the WEC?

It's a fair point well made!

I honestly don't know. I can see it's slightly better aligned with their brand values as an 'endurance' or 'rugged dependability' form of motorsport... But honestly, by my own point, I also can't picture too many potential Toyota car customers watching WEC or rallying either.

They are in those sports so there must be a justification, it must be working for them on some level. It's just I can see what Mercedes get from F1 and how they can associate their F1 efforts with several of their road cars. I can't see what road cars Toyota have that they could apply the same to.

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

Toyota or some other manufacturer - likely when Mercedes bow out. Assuming under the up-coming budget caps they can still find a supposedly 'surefire' way in that will turn their resources in to results.

I'm not so sure it would be Toyota, simply because these days their range of cars is heavily weighted to 'green' which admittedly in theory meshes with the hybrid F1 philosophy, but I don't imagine the average Toyota customer is very likely to be a motorsport fan these days. They don't do very much on the performance motoring side in their road car range at all now, unlike in the 90's/early 00's.

GT86 and the new Supra suggest's otherwise.

I met one of the guys who designed the current WRC engine and is doing the new hypercar engine for WEC just last week.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 20th August 14:05

[anonymous-user]

TheDeuce said:

It's a fair point well made!

I honestly don't know. I can see it's slightly better aligned with their brand values as an 'endurance' or 'rugged dependability' form of motorsport... But honestly, by my own point, I also can't picture too many potential Toyota car customers watching WEC or rallying either.

They are in those sports so there must be a justification, it must be working for them on some level. It's just I can see what Mercedes get from F1 and how they can associate their F1 efforts with several of their road cars. I can't see what road cars Toyota have that they could apply the same to.

Global presence in the highest profile engineering the public see, plus the associated brand awareness is why.

[The Surveyor]

heebeegeetee said:

The Surveyor said:

Mercedes pulled out of F1 GP racing in 1955 after one of their cars infamously ploughed through the crowd at Le Mans killing some 84 people. They dabbled successfully under the Sauber name in sports car racing but when they ran under the 'Mercedes' name in 1999, their cars famously flipped due to dodgy aero. Hardly an excellent track record.

In pure F1, they needed a leg-up from Brawn before returning only 10 years ago, so again it's difficult to see them as a 'key player' despite their recent dominance.

Whoa, that can't be left without comment. "Infamous" - well known for some bad quality or deed. wicked; abominable.

In terms of Mercedes involvement, they simply built the car that was crashed into the crowd. They played no part whatsoever, over and above anyone else, in causing the accident.

If you do want to point or wag a finger in someone's direction, (and god knows why after all this time), then it has to go in the direction of Mike Hawthorn and Jaguar. Even then though, the accident was of its time, with poor track design, cars with disc brakes mixing it with cars on drum brakes, etc etc.

The only "bad deed" imo was that Jaguar did not also pull out of the race, and instead went on to an utterly hollow victory. Hawthorn's demeanor after the race was in contrast to both the events that had occurred, and immediately after the accident when he was running around in tears blaming himself.

I don't know if you are aware also, but due to comments made the other surviving driver in the accident, Lance Macklin, was preparing to sue Mike Hawthorn but then Hawthorn died anyway and so we learnt no more.

It was indeed unfortunate that decades later it was Mercs that were taking to the air; it is also worth remembering that a lot of drivers have been killed and seriously hurt at Le Mans, but not by those flipping Mercs.

Mercs record in F1 and motor sport generally IS excellent, absolutely excellent. They were great in the pioneering days, they were great in the 1930s, the 1950s, the modern Merc F1 team is just brilliant imo, the very embodiment of excellence imo. They are to be wholeheartedly congratulated.

ETA: Some interesting stuff here about 1955: http://www.dailysportscar.com/2013/04/27/le-mans-1...

I know its a little off-topic, but I'm very aware of the factors around that accident. The rulings were that it was simply a tragic racing accident that led to the deaths of those spectators, all due to the poor track design and lack of any safety barrier. There was no 'blame' apportioned to any specific driver or team, so I wasn't pointing the finger at Mercedes as being responsible, but just highlighting that this infamous accident caused the Mercedes team to withdraw from GP / F1 racing. Factory teams go racing to promote the brand, Mercedes knew they were always going to be negatively associated with that event which is why they withdraw. As I said before, I am a Mercedes F1 fan.

[TheDeuce]

jsf said:

GT86 and the new Supra suggest's otherwise.

I met one of the guys who designed the current WRC engine and is doing the new hypercar engine for WEC just last week.

Edited by jsf on Tuesday 20th August 14:05

That's it though, and niether is in the league of what they were putting out mid 90's Vs the competition. The gt86 is a fun idea for a car, but not a performance car in most petrol heads minds. The new supra is at best a sequel they had to make as they knew it would sell... It's not going to set the world alight last model did.

They have no performance halo car in their range at present. What they do have, is a brand image fully aligned with green credentials, safety and value for money.

Find whatever exceptions in my examples you can - but I'm afraid you won't pursuade me that modern Toyota has as much of a sporty image as they used to have back when they last entered F1.

[StevieBee]

jsf said:

TheDeuce said:

It's a fair point well made!

I honestly don't know. I can see it's slightly better aligned with their brand values as an 'endurance' or 'rugged dependability' form of motorsport... But honestly, by my own point, I also can't picture too many potential Toyota car customers watching WEC or rallying either.

They are in those sports so there must be a justification, it must be working for them on some level. It's just I can see what Mercedes get from F1 and how they can associate their F1 efforts with several of their road cars. I can't see what road cars Toyota have that they could apply the same to.

Global presence in the highest profile engineering the public see, plus the associated brand awareness is why.

Rallying in the UK has nose dived in terms of popularity but in other parts of the world it remains exceptionally popular and where participation by manufactures can have a direct positive impact in the number of road vehicles sold. Toyota's continues presence in World Rallying is reflective of this.

WEC: Toyota's way is to do do it all and from within. WEC affords (or afforded) them the opportunity to complete in a highly technical formula at less cost than F1 (just) with less competition - none in fact for the last two years.

Formula 1 is a very different beast. Toyota spent the GDP of a small country on it and roundly failed. Many reasons but the main one being their in-house or no-house approach. This is the ‘Japanese’ way and works in other genres of the sport but rarely in F1. Honda’s difficult rebirth was blighted by this and the move to Red Bull coincided with a relaxing of such an approach and the results now speak for themselves. If Toyota follow the same path, I can see them return as a engine supplier but highly unlikely as a team in their own right. Had they concentrated only on engines in the early 00s, I think history and the present would be very different indeed.

Ahh ha…what about Mercedes? Well, yes, to a degree they buck the trend but the Mercedes F1 team is run more like an independent team than a manufacturer. They are free to hire and fire who they please and are not even obligated use accredited Mercedes suppliers – something that was a major factor in the failure of Ford/Jaguar. See also Renault!

[Jon39]

Supersam83 said:

StevieBee said:

Whilst it is possible to trace the lineage of Mercedes to Tyrell, it's not entirely accurate. Tyrell (as in Tyrell Racing Ltd) was wound up. BAT acquired their premises, equipment and entry to F1. Craig Pollock sold the BAR team to Honda who then sold it to Ross Brawn who in turn sold it to Mercedes. So from a corporate perspective, the Mercedes F1 team's line starts at BAR rather than Tyrell.

I've always thought that Ken Tyrrell sold the team and F1 entry to BAR in 1998.

I understand that BAR used a different factory, equipment, etc but the ownership was bought from Mr Tyrrell himself.

Edit: Just found companies house page for them and it shows the name changes at the bottom - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/0078744...

Here you are.

Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Limited have exactly the same company number (787446), as the Tyrrell Racing Organisation Limited, which itself was incorporated as a limited company on 9th January 1964.

Do you think 'Uncle Ken' would be pleased, that his successors also became World Champion Constructors?
Ken Tyrrell beat Ferrari by building his cars initially in an ex-military wooden shed (which survives and can still be seen), not the money no object organisation of today. After Lotus for the first year, had sole use of the new Ford Cosworth DFV V8 engine, teams could thendrive to Northampton, pay £7,500 and buy a F1 engine which was thesame as all the others.

[The Surveyor]

Jon39 said:

Here you are.

Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Limited have exactly the same company number (787446), as the Tyrrell Racing Organisation Limited, which itself was incorporated as a limited company on 9th January 1964.
..

That's fabulous, so are they the same company that we all know as 'Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport' ?

[thegreenhell]

Jon39 said:

Here you are.

Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Limited have exactly the same company number (787446), as the Tyrrell Racing Organisation Limited, which itself was incorporated as a limited company on 9th January 1964.

As said earlier. that's simply because the FIA F1 entry is tied to the registered company. The championship entry cannot be bought and sold, so the only way to buy one is to buy the registered company that holds the entry. So, in order to get an entry into F1, BAR bought a piece of paper with a registered company number on it from Ken Tyrrell, who was winding his own team up.

[StevieBee]

thegreenhell said:

Jon39 said:

Here you are.

Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Limited have exactly the same company number (787446), as the Tyrrell Racing Organisation Limited, which itself was incorporated as a limited company on 9th January 1964.

As said earlier. that's simply because the FIA F1 entry is tied to the registered company. The championship entry cannot be bought and sold, so the only way to buy one is to buy the registered company that holds the entry. So, in order to get an entry into F1, BAR bought a piece of paper with a registered company number on it from Ken Tyrrell, who was winding his own team up.

That's correct.

But still, it's interesting (or at least to me and my inner F1 geek) that the legal lineage of the team Lewis Hamilton races for is traceable to Tyrrell.

Pretty certain that Ken wouldn't be too unhappy!

[coppice]

I interviewed Paul Stewart earlier this year and asked him if he and his dad allowed themselves a wry smile at Verstappen and Hamilton duels . They did. - because, in Old Testament terms , Jackie's team - Tyrrell begat BAR begat Honda begat Brawn begat Mercedes and Stewart F1 begat Jaguar begat Red Bull.

The first F1 car I saw in action from trackside was Stewart in the Tyrrell (003 was it ? ) and who'd have thought that nealry half a century later that some of the man and .machine DNA would still be winning Grands Prix ?

[Halmyre]

StevieBee said:

thegreenhell said:

Jon39 said:

Here you are.

Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix Limited have exactly the same company number (787446), as the Tyrrell Racing Organisation Limited, which itself was incorporated as a limited company on 9th January 1964.

As said earlier. that's simply because the FIA F1 entry is tied to the registered company. The championship entry cannot be bought and sold, so the only way to buy one is to buy the registered company that holds the entry. So, in order to get an entry into F1, BAR bought a piece of paper with a registered company number on it from Ken Tyrrell, who was winding his own team up.

That's correct.

But still, it's interesting (or at least to me and my inner F1 geek) that the legal lineage of the team Lewis Hamilton races for is traceable to Tyrrell.

Pretty certain that Ken wouldn't be too unhappy!

IIRC Tyrrell was a bit pissed off with BAR for reneging on certain parts of the deal.

[Eric Mc]

coppice said:

I interviewed Paul Stewart earlier this year and asked him if he and his dad allowed themselves a wry smile at Verstappen and Hamilton duels . They did. - because, in Old Testament terms , Jackie's team - Tyrrell begat BAR begat Honda begat Brawn begat Mercedes and Stewart F1 begat Jaguar begat Red Bull.

The first F1 car I saw in action from trackside was Stewart in the Tyrrell (003 was it ? ) and who'd have thought that nealry half a century later that some of the man and .machine DNA would still be winning Grands Prix ?

The first F1 Tyrrell was 001



002




003

[Eric Mc]

coppice said:

I interviewed Paul Stewart earlier this year and asked him if he and his dad allowed themselves a wry smile at Verstappen and Hamilton duels . They did. - because, in Old Testament terms , Jackie's team - Tyrrell begat BAR begat Honda begat Brawn begat Mercedes and Stewart F1 begat Jaguar begat Red Bull.

The first F1 car I saw in action from trackside was Stewart in the Tyrrell (003 was it ? ) and who'd have thought that nealry half a century later that some of the man and .machine DNA would still be winning Grands Prix ?

The first F1 Tyrrell was 001




003

[sgtBerbatov]

Eric Mc said:

coppice said:

I interviewed Paul Stewart earlier this year and asked him if he and his dad allowed themselves a wry smile at Verstappen and Hamilton duels . They did. - because, in Old Testament terms , Jackie's team - Tyrrell begat BAR begat Honda begat Brawn begat Mercedes and Stewart F1 begat Jaguar begat Red Bull.

The first F1 car I saw in action from trackside was Stewart in the Tyrrell (003 was it ? ) and who'd have thought that nealry half a century later that some of the man and .machine DNA would still be winning Grands Prix ?

The first F1 Tyrrell was 001



002




003

The first Tyrrell was a Matra wasn't it? That they named 001?

[coppice]

No- the first Tyrrell was the Tyrrell designed by Derek Gardner in his shed . This was after the team had switched to March for the 1970 season from Matra , who wanted to use their V12 to replace the DFV. Ken thought the DFV was the way to go ad he was right - but the Matra did sound amazing .............

[Halmyre]

sgtBerbatov said:

Eric Mc said:

coppice said:

I interviewed Paul Stewart earlier this year and asked him if he and his dad allowed themselves a wry smile at Verstappen and Hamilton duels . They did. - because, in Old Testament terms , Jackie's team - Tyrrell begat BAR begat Honda begat Brawn begat Mercedes and Stewart F1 begat Jaguar begat Red Bull.

The first F1 car I saw in action from trackside was Stewart in the Tyrrell (003 was it ? ) and who'd have thought that nealry half a century later that some of the man and .machine DNA would still be winning Grands Prix ?

The first F1 Tyrrell was 001



002




003

The first Tyrrell was a Matra wasn't it? That they named 001?

Heavily influenced by the Matra (and why not) but it was a new car.