Official Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

M3ax

955 posts

157 months

Wednesday 11th September
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The trouble is that the goal posts seem to be constantly changing. For example, it wasn’t long ago the the “Verstappen” rule was applied after Max was called out for moving under braking.

I find it disturbing that drivers are now saying “so that’s how it is then” after each race.

Charles should have been penalised at Monza according to pre existing precident . I’m happy for him to have won but do it within the rules. What rules though? Whatever rule applies at the time?

37chevy

2,820 posts

101 months

Wednesday 11th September
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M4CK 1 said:
There's nothing in those rules to say it's OK to force somebody off the track in fact it says its strictly forbidden!!
The back and white flag is for a misdemeanor not a blatant act of dangerous driving.
Michael Masi took on it himself to class this incident as a misdemeanor and not pass to the Stewards when CLC had already dangerously weaved underbraking!!
Go check the sporting regs then. But given he’s in charge, has multiple camera angles, sensor readouts and has fully explained the stewards position I guess he’s in a far better position to assess the situation than you or me.

37chevy

2,820 posts

101 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
M3ax said:
The trouble is that the goal posts seem to be constantly changing. For example, it wasn’t long ago the the “Verstappen” rule was applied after Max was called out for moving under braking.

I find it disturbing that drivers are now saying “so that’s how it is then” after each race.

Charles should have been penalised at Monza according to pre existing precident . I’m happy for him to have won but do it within the rules. What rules though? Whatever rule applies at the time?
Again as explained by masi this change in attitude was requested by drivers and teams. You can use presidents to a certain extent but when you change the approach, new presidents need to be set, which was done in Austria

paua

1,274 posts

88 months

Wednesday 11th September
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37chevy said:
Again as explained by masi this change in attitude was requested by drivers and teams. You can use presidents to a certain extent but when you change the approach, new presidents need to be set, which was done in Austria
What's trump got to do with it? What new president - putin, perhaps? wink

ash73

16,506 posts

166 months

Wednesday 11th September
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Supersam83 said:
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at Austrian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/ABKY6nbKIL4

Leclerc Vs Verstappen at British GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/RmvZyC6s_Wk

Leclerc Vs Hamilton at Italian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/1YKI0zM36Tc
Superb skills, Charles is single-handedly making F1 worth watching again.

M4CK 1

367 posts

72 months

Wednesday 11th September
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37chevy said:
M4CK 1 said:
There's nothing in those rules to say it's OK to force somebody off the track in fact it says its strictly forbidden!!
The back and white flag is for a misdemeanor not a blatant act of dangerous driving.
Michael Masi took on it himself to class this incident as a misdemeanor and not pass to the Stewards when CLC had already dangerously weaved underbraking!!
Go check the sporting regs then. But given he’sain charge, has multiple camera angles, sensor readouts and has fully explained the stewards position I guess he’s in a far better position to assess the situation than you or me.
I know he's in charge and yes he probably has more cameras but from the one camera angle we've all seen and in car camera angle, I don't see anything but Hamilton, with all his experience, take to the grass, as his wheels are interlocked with CLC and then to go down the escape road to prevent a collision.

paulguitar

3,368 posts

58 months

Wednesday 11th September
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ash73 said:
Superb skills, Charles is single-handedly making F1 worth watching again.
It's certainly not single-handed. What about Hungary where we had a fantastic race between Lewis and Max?

I am delighted CLC looks so good though, as once the best, Lewis, retires, there will someone around to ensure Max does not have it all his own way.




37chevy

2,820 posts

101 months

Thursday 12th September
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paulguitar said:
ash73 said:
Superb skills, Charles is single-handedly making F1 worth watching again.
It's certainly not single-handed. What about Hungary where we had a fantastic race between Lewis and Max?

I am delighted CLC looks so good though, as once the best, Lewis, retires, there will someone around to ensure Max does not have it all his own way.
Tbh it’s shaping up nicely. The battles between the old guard in Lewis against max and Charles is great to watch. Add in some great midfield styles with Norris, Sainz etc and this season has had some very good races (I’m blanking France from my memory!)

Hungrymc

4,081 posts

82 months

Thursday 12th September
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37chevy said:
Again as explained by masi this change in attitude was requested by drivers and teams. You can use presidents to a certain extent but when you change the approach, new presidents need to be set, which was done in Austria
I think that’s not correct, The drivers all want to race, I didn’t hear of any driver request that it be acceptable to move late in the braking zone and crowd a car alongside off track.

That will kill more racing than it creates because it’s such a cheap / easy defence... just be ultra aggressive and never allow space, weave and block.

I didn’t see a braking zone squeeze in Austria?

We all want close racing, and that comes from a level of respect and trust. It’s important to recognise these are big complex open wheel cars not touring cars or some single make challenge, This will damage racing not encourage it.

And as for the contact or not determining the penalty when that is controlled by the other driver....? A glass eye in a dogs arse can see that is ridiculous.

Hungrymc

4,081 posts

82 months

Thursday 12th September
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37chevy said:
Tbh it’s shaping up nicely. The battles between the old guard in Lewis against max and Charles is great to watch. Add in some great midfield styles with Norris, Sainz etc and this season has had some very good races (I’m blanking France from my memory!)
100% agree with this, we are fortunate to have some fabulous drivers and great races this year.

E34-3.2

826 posts

24 months

Thursday 12th September
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Hungrymc said:
37chevy said:
Tbh it’s shaping up nicely. The battles between the old guard in Lewis against max and Charles is great to watch. Add in some great midfield styles with Norris, Sainz etc and this season has had some very good races (I’m blanking France from my memory!)
100% agree with this, we are fortunate to have some fabulous drivers and great races this year.
I agree partly with both of you. Indeed we have plenty of good races to come but I feel we have a lot of clumsy driving happening which might give us a lot of controversial results as well.

Just in Monza alone, I felt like many of the younger generation were on the limit and reflected more of a gp2 or even Porsche cup style of driving. Leclerc, Verstapen, Albon, stroll and even Vettel were all making what could have been very costly mistakes and dare I say, dangerous.



Hungrymc

4,081 posts

82 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
E34-3.2 said:
I agree partly with both of you. Indeed we have plenty of good races to come but I feel we have a lot of clumsy driving happening which might give us a lot of controversial results as well.

Just in Monza alone, I felt like many of the younger generation were on the limit and reflected more of a gp2 or even Porsche cup style of driving. Leclerc, Verstapen, Albon, stroll and even Vettel were all making what could have been very costly mistakes and dare I say, dangerous.
I'm with you there. The racing has been excellent this year prior to this new interpretation / clarification. What was needed was consistency not slackening of important rules. Vettel in Canada really wound up the cries of "let them race"..... Simple blocking and forcing a car off track isn't letting them race, it will kill the racing.

My point was we are fortunate with the talent and the racing we've been seeing. The drivers will drive right to the fringes of what they can get away with according the latest rulings, they're obliged to as this is a professional sport with high stakes…. Its a backward step, but its the officials and not the drivers causing it.

shirt

19,055 posts

146 months

Thursday 12th September
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This is getting boring now

768

4,929 posts

41 months

Thursday 12th September
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M4CK 1 said:
768 said:
You're right, LeClerc should never be allowed to race again.
That's just daft!!
There are rules and boundaries in racing, when you step over them, there should be repercussions and a black and white flag after already weaving under braking. Both Vettel and Stroll were punished for a dangerous manoeuvre why CLC???
Of course, it's an absurd argument to the extremes. But so I think is the suggestion that officials are actively promoting dangerous and deadly outcomes because they took a different view on enforcing rules, a view with reasonable arguments.

Vettel and Stroll were very different circumstances. They weren't picking a line into a corner racing for the lead, they weren't even on the track. It's not really relevant to my point though - I'm not saying LeClerc shouldn't have received a penalty of some description, I just don't think it was a wildly unreasonable result that they didn't just give Hamilton the easy win he was asking for but couldn't achieve on the track.

kambites

57,335 posts

166 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
To my mind the question isn't whether what Leclerc did is dangerous or even whether it should be legal in an ideal world; the question is whether it is legal with the rules as they currently stand in both letter and precedence. People driving as Leclerc drove wont kill the racing; but the stewards being highly inconsistent in their interpretation of the rules certainly has the potential to.

To my mind the stewards were simply wrong in this instance - what Leclerc did was against the rules and has been previously penalised and as such, should have been penalised in this instance. Whether I agree with the rules in question is neither here nor there.


What all of the drivers and teams have been constantly saying is that the stewards need to be consistent so they know what they can and can't do, and right now that's exactly what we're not getting.

With the rhetoric coming out of the FIA at the moment, you can be damned sure that next time a driver finds himself in the position Hamilton was in approaching the chicane, he will hold his line rather than driving off the track to avoid a collision; not because the drivers want to crash (obviously) but because they will be desperate to establish a reputation as someone who wont yield to stop other drivers taking advantage.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 12th September 09:58

768

4,929 posts

41 months

Thursday 12th September
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I'd assume they thought not legal or they wouldn't have shown the flag.

heebeegeetee

26,747 posts

193 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Go check the sporting regs then. But given he’s in charge, has multiple camera angles, sensor readouts and has fully explained the stewards position I guess he’s in a far better position to assess the situation than you or me.
The assessment is possibly fine, it’s the conclusions drawn that I struggle with, and I side with those saying it’s ridiculous that a driver who breaks the rules may or may not get a penalty depending on what the other driver(s) do in the situation.

At Monza I would say that Hamilton was penalised twice through loss of time by Charles breaking the rules, where Charles himself received no penalty whatsoever.

I will say though, I also agree that Charles is proving to be fantastic, and I’m starting to think that he’s much better than Max. Max is starting to look something of a one trick pony imo, but either way, the future of F1 is looking great.?

M4CK 1

367 posts

72 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
768 said:
M4CK 1 said:
768 said:
You're right, LeClerc should never be allowed to race again.
That's just daft!!
There are rules and boundaries in racing, when you step over them, there should be repercussions and a black and white flag after already weaving under braking. Both Vettel and Stroll were punished for a dangerous manoeuvre why CLC???
Of course, it's an absurd argument to the extremes. But so I think is the suggestion that officials are actively promoting dangerous and deadly outcomes because they took a different view on enforcing rules, a view with reasonable arguments.

Vettel and Stroll were very different circumstances. They weren't picking a line into a corner racing for the lead, they weren't even on the track. It's not really relevant to my point though - I'm not saying LeClerc shouldn't have received a penalty of some description, I just don't think it was a wildly unreasonable result that they didn't just give Hamilton the easy win he was asking for but couldn't achieve on the track.
I don't think the circumstances are any different!
Vettel made a dangerous manoeuvre which caused an impact with another car and was punished with to the max. next step would've been a black flag, according to Michael.
Stroll did the same thing, but fortunately got away without touching the next car, who then went off the track to avoid a collision. He was also punished for his dangerous manoeuvre but to a lesser extent
CLC Purposely drove Hamilton off the track, and no punishment!!!
In my mind that is probably worse, as what Vettel and Stroll did were daft and they were in a panic to get back on the track!
CLC forces Hamilton off the circuit to prevent him from passing!!!!
Is that not worse than Vettel and Stroll!!
The level of inconsistency is know going to cause eruptions!!!
The level, this year, of racing is amazing but like any sport it needs to be kept in the boundaries of the sport!!

768

4,929 posts

41 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
You can't see a difference between crashing into another car and not crashing into another car?

M4CK 1

367 posts

72 months

Thursday 12th September
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768 said:
You can't see a difference between crashing into another car and not crashing into another car?
Did Stroll get punished for causing a near collision?