'Let Them Race' - Changes in Race Stewarding Philosophy

[kiseca]

angrymoby said:

kiseca said:

I seem to be in a minority - I know David Coulthard disagrees with this - but being able to crowd out a driver on the exit of a corner is already, for me, stepping over the line. I don't like it. It's not as dangerous as crowding out under braking, certainly, but any contact will carry some potential danger and more significantly, for me it kills the racing.

because a driver is supposedly on/ over the limit of adhesion at the apex & exit of a corner ...let alone that they'll be fully focusing on hitting the apex, so wont be looking in their mirrors

what you're suggesting would require drivers not taking corners at 10/10ths when being followed, which imo isn't racing ...it's a glorified time trial

Not what I'm suggesting at all. What I'm suggesting is if a driver manages to get alongside you, whether they're on the inside or the outside, don't drive into him.

Plenty of exciting racing and overtaking has happened where drivers have been side by side for three or four consecutive corners, where either driver has had an opportunity to end the challenge by squeezing their rival off the outside of the corner.

We both want to see cars racing, that's for sure.

[HustleRussell]

HardtopManual said:

ash73 said:

As well as no movement in braking zones, I think they should be required to leave a car width on entry AND on exit if there's an overlap. I don't like the inside car running the outside car off the track on the exit, claiming he "took the racing line". I'd rather see them side by side through the corner and exit.

But if you're on the outside at corner exit, you've already lost the corner. You've decided to prioritise corner speed over defending. If you don't want to get pushed off the track at corner exit, defend the inside rather than leaving the door open.

I don't agree with Ash's interpretation but HTM's doesn't really work. Inside / outside will flip about as soon as you encounter a series of corners.

[HustleRussell]

Kraken said:

Thing which comes over from reading a lot of these comments is that people seem to forget that cars have brake pedals as well as accelerator pedals. A driver is perfectly capable of pulling out of a move if the gap is closing. If there was a wall, a gravel trap or wet grass I guarantee they would be pulling out and no-one would even mention the "incident".

That's only true to a point, the driver has generally committed to and fixed his trajectory around the corner and his track-out point at the moment he applies the brakes. They aren't driving around leaving sufficient reserve capacity to 'slow down more' or tighten his line if the other driver is moving about under braking, turning in on him or trying to tough it out around the outside despite having lost the place.

[SturdyHSV]

M4CK 1 said:

Oh by the way computer games are not real life

M4CK 1 said:

Unfortunately kids of today, just like you and Bo Apex have warped minds from playing vi. deo games!!!

Really though, really?

[HardtopManual]

HustleRussell said:

I don't agree with Ash's interpretation but HTM's doesn't really work. Inside / outside will flip about as soon as you encounter a series of corners.

But every series of corners leads to a straight. You want to have the inside as you exit onto the straight? Better position your car appropriately at the entry to the complex.

[HardtopManual]

angrymoby said:

Because it's the basic fundamental concept of all motorsport racing ...you get to the apex first, you're deemed to have 'won' the right to the corner & racing line (till the next straight)

it's a pretty simple concept

This. It boggles the mind that it's even up for debate.

[Poppiecock]

HardtopManual said:

angrymoby said:

Because it's the basic fundamental concept of all motorsport racing ...you get to the apex first, you're deemed to have 'won' the right to the corner & racing line (till the next straight)

it's a pretty simple concept

This. It boggles the mind that it's even up for debate.

So, going in way too hot to “win” the apex, then running your opponent off the road because you had no chance of doing anything else is a fair tactic?

If you’ve made allowances for someone coming into the apex with a good chance of hitting you, why should you lose out when they run you off the road?

[angrymoby]

Poppiecock said:

So, going in way too hot to “win” the apex, then running your opponent off the road because you had no chance of doing anything else is a fair tactic?

If you’ve made allowances for someone coming into the apex with a good chance of hitting you, why should you lose out when they run you off the road?

you're going to have to give us an example ...because if you make the apex & don't fall off the tarmac you haven't gone in 'too hot'

[Benrad]

I like the Bradley Philpot lane system

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmx1YnJyeS5jb20vZmVlZHMvbWFwLnhtbA&episode=OTk3MTZiOWUtNjM3MC00MjFjLWE4NGMtY2U2MDRlZjhiOTBh

[HardtopManual]

Poppiecock said:

So, going in way too hot to “win” the apex, then running your opponent off the road because you had no chance of doing anything else is a fair tactic?

I don't think anyone's arguing that. And if you've come in too hot to make the apex, sailing to the outside, the guy on the outside is more than likely just going to let you steam past, then cut underneath and drive by you on exit.

Poppiecock said:

If you’ve made allowances for someone coming into the apex with a good chance of hitting you, why should you lose out when they run you off the road?

You mean if you've left the door wide open and not defended the apex at all, why should you get upset if someone makes the apex, wins the corner and then takes the racing line at exit?

[swisstoni]

Looking at Masi’s CV it doesn’t fill me with a lot of confidence that he has much experience with massively fast open wheelers.

[Kraken]

So why did Rosberg get a penalty at Hockenheim then? To me that move was perfectly ok but I remember at the time I was in a very small minority. Same when he did a similar thing to Hamilton.

To me if you've got to the inside of the corner first and kept the car on the track on the exit then it's down to the other driver to use the other pedal and slow down and pull in behind. They don't have to keep their foot in and try to go around the outside off track. That's their choice.

[Bo_apex]

M4CK 1 said:

TheDeuce said:

M4CK 1 said:

Bo_apex said:

Let them race. Let them crash.
They know the risks, although the risk today is far less than previous decades.
It remains an inherent part of motorsport.

I guess you don't mind them killing each other or even somebody else or maybe the crowd!!!
We're not playing Death race you know???
If Hamilton had clipped CLC ferrari wheels, Hamilton could have taken off into the concrete barrier or over the barrier!!!
But that's racing
Oh by the way computer games are not real life

All depends on whether you think the driver should be forced to be safe, or simply protected from obvious danger. Most drivers would I think choose to be released from 'the rules' if doing so would give them an advantage in the heat of battle. Most would independently choose to create more danger than they're allowed to get away with now, if they could.

The world today doesn't work like that I know. But I also think the world has become so risk averse that problems will start to arise and not just in F1. It is a problem in all walks of life when avoiding risk diminishes joy. After-all, what is it we seek to protect life for, if not to live and have joy? The drivers would be safest of all if the races were cancelled - no one wants that. The very fact that races do still happen is proof that driver safety is NOT the number one priority, racing is. The only question is, where the line should be drawn.

Blimey have we not seen a young talented driver just get killed!!!
Did we not see another young driver launch into a marshals area
These cars aren't infallible, Yes they are safer, but that racers should end there life for your entertainment is seriously warped!!!
Unfortunately kids of today, just like you and Bo Apex have warped minds from playing vi. deo games!!!
Grow up!!!!

Video games ?

On reflection you are correct, I did once put 50p into a Super Mario arcade machine.
Shortly after a world of possibilities began emerging in the real world, so didn't revisit.

[Cabinet Enforcer]

Kraken said:

So why did Rosberg get a penalty at Hockenheim then? To me that move was perfectly ok but I remember at the time I was in a very small minority. Same when he did a similar thing to Hamilton.

He did not make the apex in either case, he forced the other driver off track without convincing the stewards that he was taking the racing line.

Basically he messed up his braking and thus forced another car to take avoiding action, and benefited from that. It is no different from running through a chicane run off in order to stay in front.

[Adrian W]

Of course the truth wont be let them race, it will be back to how it was prior to Monza (Ferrari's home track) with the FIA saying it is different stewards at different tracks, Everyone knows what happened (they saw it on TV) and why it happened!

[C2996]

If they stick to these new black and white flag rules, it affectively means each driver can force another car off the road, ONCE and get away with it. Looking forward to the carnage when someone gets near magnussen

[IforB]

I'm all for "letting them race" but the stewarding needs to be consistent and I'm afraid in the case of LeClerc on Hamilton, it was a cut and dried illegal move. Not leaving a car's width and moving in the braking zone. Slam dunk there.

The problem for me is that the black and white flag is shown by the race director not the stewards. The decision should have been sent straight to them to make the call.

A black and white flag is there for much less serious transgressions and so it appears the race director has made a call without referring to the rule book.

Of course we don't want drivers being penalised for naff all, but at the same time, there must be a consistent way of dealing with incidents.

I know a chap who is a driver coach in junior categories and he's pulling his hair out over this decision, as it has basically given younger drivers carte blanche to copy this and not get properly penalised. He's just waiting for the first "but Le Clerc got away with it..." conversation.

[anonymous-user]

IforB said:

I'm all for "letting them race" but the stewarding needs to be consistent and I'm afraid in the case of LeClerc on Hamilton, it was a cut and dried illegal move. Not leaving a car's width and moving in the braking zone. Slam dunk there.

The problem for me is that the black and white flag is shown by the race director not the stewards. The decision should have been sent straight to them to make the call.

A black and white flag is there for much less serious transgressions and so it appears the race director has made a call without referring to the rule book.

Of course we don't want drivers being penalised for naff all, but at the same time, there must be a consistent way of dealing with incidents.

I know a chap who is a driver coach in junior categories and he's pulling his hair out over this decision, as it has basically given younger drivers carte blanche to copy this and not get properly penalised. He's just waiting for the first "but Le Clerc got away with it..." conversation.

Most of these rules in F1 are not in place in other formulae, or at least they’re not enforced. Did you see the TOCA meeting?

Ginettas, juniors, F4, just about every category had several examples of drivers being squeezed, far worse than what happened at Monza.

I’m not saying F1 doesn’t need a little more regulation than TOCA but it’s misleading to suggest it might influence racers in lower formulae to a significant extent. They’re already allowed to go much further.

[IforB]

REALIST123 said:

IforB said:

I'm all for "letting them race" but the stewarding needs to be consistent and I'm afraid in the case of LeClerc on Hamilton, it was a cut and dried illegal move. Not leaving a car's width and moving in the braking zone. Slam dunk there.

The problem for me is that the black and white flag is shown by the race director not the stewards. The decision should have been sent straight to them to make the call.

A black and white flag is there for much less serious transgressions and so it appears the race director has made a call without referring to the rule book.

Of course we don't want drivers being penalised for naff all, but at the same time, there must be a consistent way of dealing with incidents.

I know a chap who is a driver coach in junior categories and he's pulling his hair out over this decision, as it has basically given younger drivers carte blanche to copy this and not get properly penalised. He's just waiting for the first "but Le Clerc got away with it..." conversation.

Most of these rules in F1 are not in place in other formulae, or at least they’re not enforced. Did you see the TOCA meeting?

Ginettas, juniors, F4, just about every category had several examples of drivers being squeezed, far worse than what happened at Monza.

I’m not saying F1 doesn’t need a little more regulation than TOCA but it’s misleading to suggest it might influence racers in lower formulae to a significant extent. They’re already allowed to go much further.

The person who told me this is a driver coach and engineer in lower formulae (including F4) and they very much have the same rules in regard to giving other cars space.
He has had to spend a lot of time explaining to grumpy kids and their irate parents (his words not mine) why they were penalised for a move like that one. He reckons his life is going to get a lot more difficult in regard to that now given the fact that LeClerc fundamentally got away with it.

I am not going to doubt him on this. It is his job.

[Kraken]

Not convinced over this "car width" business. Many a time in club racing I've been on the outside and ended up running through the gravel etc as the other car takes the full width. The couple of times I've mentioned this to race officials the line has been "you've got a brake pedal use it".

I would have thought the driver coach would be much more concerned with what happens in BTCC and WTCR to be honest.