Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?
Discussion
An injured 40 year old no less.He could barely turn his head after the bike crash.
it's just a shame we never saw him in a good reliable car,the merc team was in its infancy.
Looking back at other returning drivers to gauge performance it's hard to find any really;Button had a year off came back to Monaco and crashed,Ferrari had replacements for Massa-Badoer and Fisi that couldn't regularly make the 106% rule in qualy.Having said that You can't condone some of the moves on track but it was a "game changing" team attitude he had that is admirable.
There is a lot to like about MSC-mainly how he was just 'on it' all the time.
it's just a shame we never saw him in a good reliable car,the merc team was in its infancy.
Looking back at other returning drivers to gauge performance it's hard to find any really;Button had a year off came back to Monaco and crashed,Ferrari had replacements for Massa-Badoer and Fisi that couldn't regularly make the 106% rule in qualy.Having said that You can't condone some of the moves on track but it was a "game changing" team attitude he had that is admirable.
There is a lot to like about MSC-mainly how he was just 'on it' all the time.
Olympus593 said:
A;Button had a year off came back to Monaco and crashed
That's different though. He came back and never having driven the car qualified in the top 10 beating his team mate.Due to the daft rules he was then put to the back of the grid as there was a problem with the engine. He then took an early pitstop to try and turn things around but was blocked by a dangerous release for which the driver got a time penalty but it didn't help Button as he was then stuck behind the car when he should have been in clear air making up time. There was nothing else to lose when he made his move that didn't come off.
Kraken said:
Olympus593 said:
A;Button had a year off came back to Monaco and crashed
That's different though. He came back and never having driven the car qualified in the top 10 beating his team mate.Due to the daft rules he was then put to the back of the grid as there was a problem with the engine. He then took an early pitstop to try and turn things around but was blocked by a dangerous release for which the driver got a time penalty but it didn't help Button as he was then stuck behind the car when he should have been in clear air making up time. There was nothing else to lose when he made his move that didn't come off.
paulguitar said:
Also, it was a one-off. Schuey had a whole 3 years to try to get on terms with Rosberg and did not manage it.
Pole at Monaco revealed he still had raw talent, in a tier 2 car, albeit slower than in his prime.Let's see how Rosberg or Hamilton perform if they get bored at 40 and return.
Irvine was correct ofcourse, MS should never have returned after 3 years retirement.
Time marches forward
HustleRussell said:
Retirement speculation seems to start when a driver is in his late 30s and there seems to be a consensus that a driver at 40 is past his best. Any ex-driver will tell you that.
The human body is physically past it’s prime at 40. It is more difficult to keep weigh off. Injury is more likely and slower to recover from.
The brain is more plastic and slower to learn.
This knowledge can have a subconscious negative impact on motivation.
If the driver wants kids and doesn’t have them yet he has one eye on the door at around this age. If the driver has kids already, he is growing increasingly guilty about not being there to do normal Dad stuff.
An F1 driver at 40 has probably queued up a load of personal and business interests to guarantee his own sanity and the financial future of he and his family. These come with their own commitments and are a distraction to some extent.
Of course it’s possible for a driver to continue to compete at a decent level at 40+ but everything is a bit harder and his age is beginning to show on the timesheets in terms of outright speed. This is especially true in the modern era when the average age of the rest of the grid is around 30- and the emphasis on training is such that they are all especially fit these days.
ETA: and any years out exacerbate all of this because the technical race never stops, the cars are ever changing and at an older age the driver is slower to learn and adapt and instinctively more risk-averse.
100% correct.The human body is physically past it’s prime at 40. It is more difficult to keep weigh off. Injury is more likely and slower to recover from.
The brain is more plastic and slower to learn.
This knowledge can have a subconscious negative impact on motivation.
If the driver wants kids and doesn’t have them yet he has one eye on the door at around this age. If the driver has kids already, he is growing increasingly guilty about not being there to do normal Dad stuff.
An F1 driver at 40 has probably queued up a load of personal and business interests to guarantee his own sanity and the financial future of he and his family. These come with their own commitments and are a distraction to some extent.
Of course it’s possible for a driver to continue to compete at a decent level at 40+ but everything is a bit harder and his age is beginning to show on the timesheets in terms of outright speed. This is especially true in the modern era when the average age of the rest of the grid is around 30- and the emphasis on training is such that they are all especially fit these days.
ETA: and any years out exacerbate all of this because the technical race never stops, the cars are ever changing and at an older age the driver is slower to learn and adapt and instinctively more risk-averse.
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 23 October 09:49
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 23 October 09:52
Internal changes also occur, often without being noticed until an accute warning flashes up.
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
Pole at Monaco revealed he still had raw talent, in a tier 2 car, albeit slower than in his prime.
Rosberg put the other one 3rd, so on that day at least, it was not a tier 2 car.
ks....don't know where it has come from, but it needs to disappear. some cars and teams have always been faster than others since the dawn of f1
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
Pole at Monaco revealed he still had raw talent, in a tier 2 car, albeit slower than in his prime.
Rosberg put the other one 3rd, so on that day at least, it was not a tier 2 car.Bo_apex said:
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
Pole at Monaco revealed he still had raw talent, in a tier 2 car, albeit slower than in his prime.
Rosberg put the other one 3rd, so on that day at least, it was not a tier 2 car.Interestingly Hamilton was a full second clear of Button in the same quali.
Bo_apex said:
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
Pole at Monaco revealed he still had raw talent, in a tier 2 car, albeit slower than in his prime.
Rosberg put the other one 3rd, so on that day at least, it was not a tier 2 car.Schumi's pole was very impressive.
IIRC the Mercedes had very good traction at the time, but it paid the price with its rate of rear tyre degradation.
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
Pole at Monaco revealed he still had raw talent, in a tier 2 car, albeit slower than in his prime.
Rosberg put the other one 3rd, so on that day at least, it was not a tier 2 car.Interestingly Hamilton was a full second clear of Button in the same quali.
Not sure what you are trying to establish, other than your disapproval of Schumacher's performance out of retirement.
Yes he was old, and way past his prime
Bo_apex said:
And Webber qualified ahead of both Rosberg and Hamilton.
Not sure what you are trying to establish, other than your disapproval of Schumacher's performance out of retirement.
Since the really relevant stats are those between teammates, I thought it was interesting that the advantage of Hamilton over Button was about 700% of that from MS to Rosberg on a circuit where:Not sure what you are trying to establish, other than your disapproval of Schumacher's performance out of retirement.
Bo_apex said:
Well we all know that Monaco is where the driver can make a real difference
paulguitar said:
Since the really relevant stats are those between teammates, I thought it was interesting that the advantage of Hamilton over Button was about 700% of that from MS to Rosberg (at Monaco)
It'd seem to be a bit pointless to cherry pick a single session of a single race weekend for your comparison when we have three full seasons worth of driver comparison data for the two driver pairings from 2010 to 2012?Rosberg beat Schumacher in the championship in 2011. Rosberg smashed Schumacher in 2010 and 2012.
Bo_apex said:
And Webber qualified ahead of both Rosberg and Hamilton.
I must have missed the years where Webber was in a McL or a Merc?Bo_apex said:
Yes he was old, and way past his prime
so was '96 prime era Schumacher or not? ...as i seem to remember him binning it there then, lap 1 wasn't it?HustleRussell said:
It'd seem to be a bit pointless to cherry pick a single session of a single race weekend for your comparison when we have three full seasons worth of driver comparison data for the two driver pairings from 2010 to 2012?
Rosberg beat Schumacher in the championship in 2011. Rosberg smashed Schumacher in 2010 and 2012.
I get your point, I was just looking at the stats for that Monaco weekend since it had been brought up to show us Schumacher still was capable of great performances.Rosberg beat Schumacher in the championship in 2011. Rosberg smashed Schumacher in 2010 and 2012.
Post-comeback Schumacher did not disgrace himself but he was not the driver I remembered and I think others will agree. He didn't seem to have the outright pace he once had, and while he was still a canny driver on Sundays he also had a few accidents which looked uncharacteristically 'accidental' and betrayed the notion that his feel and judgment were still pin sharp.
HustleRussell said:
Post-comeback Schumacher did not disgrace himself but he was not the driver I remembered and I think others will agree. He didn't seem to have the outright pace he once had, and while he was still a canny driver on Sundays he also had a few accidents which looked uncharacteristically 'accidental' and betrayed the notion that his feel and judgment were still pin sharp.
I don't think there is much doubt he had declined, as well as finally facing a level playing field in his own team.One thing that had not changed was his willingness to sometimes drive like an absolute nutter. The thing I most clearly remember from his comeback years was this:
NewUsername said:
I’m not sure it was that speed and Senna did it out of a sense of injustice because of the grid slot being moved to the dirty side.... it wasn’t done on such simple terms as Schumacher, I’m not saying it’s right but it’s deffo not the same
He admitted a year later he did it to take Prost out of the race to the title. It was deliberate and nothing to do with being given the wrong side of the grid. Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff