Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?
Discussion
TobyTR said:
vdn said:
^ Hamilton isn’t on Schumacher’s level... he’s on another level.
He’s breaking records without the poor character and s
tty tactics.
Even without the records and championships; this would still be true.
well if he is on another level to Schumacher then he would've performed similar heroics and finish runner-up in 2013. He didn't.He’s breaking records without the poor character and s
tty tactics. Even without the records and championships; this would still be true.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
TobyTR said:
because in your post you mentioned Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity as Hamilton.
I don't see how that translates to your post about something completely unrelated?TobyTR said:
Alonso eclipsed Hamilton throughout 2013 when it came to wheel-to-wheel racecraft. And yes Hamilton is one of the all-time greats at wheel-to-wheel racecraft too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM
One standard overtake that any racing driver is capable of. You'll need to provide a bit more than that to convince me of your opinion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM
And that 1 or 2 years of good driving eclipses 13 years of world class driving? How is that?
TobyTR said:
But Alonso really was special in 2013, much like in 2012. Hamilton had the second-best car that year and finished 4th in the WDC, Alonso had the third-best car and finished runner-up.
2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements
2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements
Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.
And then you go back to posting about your percieved stats and interpretation of unrelated events to "wheel-to-wheel race craft". 2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements
2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements
Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.
Are you confusing race distance form, with battling through a few corners on track?
TobyTR said:
'97 Italian GP where a car's speed and engine power are the main factors - Alesi on pole, McLaren-Mercs 5th and 6th, Schumacher qualified 9th and Irvine 10th. The race was won by Coulthard with Alesi 2nd. Schumacher finished 6th and Irvine 8th. "second-best car" and "fast car" apparently 
not entirely sure what you're arguing against here ...everyone knows the RS9 was a good engine & the B197 did well at all the power circuitsbut again- cars are more than just engines & the '97 roster of tracks had more than just power circuits
TobyTR said:
F310 and F310B were designed and developed by the same personnel.
They were, but that doesn't equate that they had the same performance - indeed the only quotes i can find re: the F310B is that it was much improved - so as i asked before, post up from those who thought it wasn'tTobyTR said:
Eddie couldn't have been that bad to get a Jaguar on the podium twice
& what has that got to do with '97? ...maybe '97 was an off year? maybe, just maybe Eddie improved & finally matured in those 4 years??TobyTR said:
and Ron Dennis to consider replacing Coulthard with him...
& yet he didn'tDeesee said:
9 more wins and it’s academic..
It is genuinely fun to read here and contribute now and then, but if Lewis surpasses Schmacher's stats, he will have done so without number one status and without much in the way at all of questionable driving.I think it will be hard to seriously argue anything other than Lewis being simply better. I have him rated higher already, even though I still believe Schey was a mighty driver.
paulguitar said:
It is genuinely fun to read here and contribute now and then, but if Lewis surpasses Schmacher's stats, he will have done so without number one status and without much in the way at all of questionable driving.
I think it will be hard to seriously argue anything other than Lewis being simply better. I have him rated higher already, even though I still believe Schey was a mighty driver.
He is naturally more talented and it shows when you look at what he has done in all the categories he raced. Is there another driver who has won every championship like Hamilton did before F1? Can't remember?I think it will be hard to seriously argue anything other than Lewis being simply better. I have him rated higher already, even though I still believe Schey was a mighty driver.
Funnily enough, I believe that it will be very hard to equal or surpass Shumacher's records. 8 more races and 1 more championship to win, not that easy when you look at the competition Hamilton is facing at the moment. Would be great to witness.
E34-3.2 said:
Funnily enough, I believe that it will be very hard to equal or surpass Shumacher's records. 8 more races and 1 more championship to win, not that easy when you look at the competition Hamilton is facing at the moment. Would be great to witness.
I’m not so sure. Merc had this season sewn up by the summer break. They have probably been working on next years car since then whilst Ferrari and Red Bull have been concentrating on developing this years car. I suspect Merc will start the 2020 season with a sizeable advantage. Edited by sandman77 on Friday 1st November 17:01
E34-3.2 said:
He is naturally more talented and it shows when you look at what he has done in all the categories he raced. Is there another driver who has won every championship like Hamilton did before F1? Can't remember?
Funnily enough, I believe that it will be very hard to equal or surpass Shumacher's records. 8 more races and 1 more championship to win, not that easy when you look at the competition Hamilton is facing at the moment. Would be great to witness.
+ 1 on all of that Funnily enough, I believe that it will be very hard to equal or surpass Shumacher's records. 8 more races and 1 more championship to win, not that easy when you look at the competition Hamilton is facing at the moment. Would be great to witness.
TobyTR said:
Lewis is a top-5 great no doubt, but more-often-than-not in tricky situations he has to be told what to do by his engineers and doesn't problem solve or come up with solutions himself like Schumacher or Alonso did. So many times over the last 10 years we've seen and heard him micro-managed and re-assured by Bono
^^ this ^^Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 31st October 21:51
and Hamilton wanted to chuck the towel in at Hockenheim. Fortunately Bono convinced him to keep going and he picked up a point.
One of my colleagues worked in the McLaren track-side team during Hamilton's tenure. She says (yes, she is female and therefore must be well above average to make it into the track-side team) that Hamilton is the most gifted and naturally skilled racer she has ever met, even compared to Shumacher.
That is good enough for me!
No question, Hamilton is better, as others have said MS had a default 'cheat' mode that LH does not have. What riles me the most is that he was good enough to win without cheating, but still did. LH wants to race, is prepared to race anybody, from team-mate to WDC opposition and generally comes out on top. LH does not ask for, or need, No 1 status. Race craft? Abu Dhabi 2016, driving as slowly as possible to back up Rosberg into the others without giving NR the opportunity to overtake. Winning as slowly as possible is a rare skill.
That is good enough for me!
No question, Hamilton is better, as others have said MS had a default 'cheat' mode that LH does not have. What riles me the most is that he was good enough to win without cheating, but still did. LH wants to race, is prepared to race anybody, from team-mate to WDC opposition and generally comes out on top. LH does not ask for, or need, No 1 status. Race craft? Abu Dhabi 2016, driving as slowly as possible to back up Rosberg into the others without giving NR the opportunity to overtake. Winning as slowly as possible is a rare skill.
TobyTR said:
because in your post you mentioned Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity as Hamilton.
Alonso eclipsed Hamilton throughout 2013 when it came to wheel-to-wheel racecraft. And yes Hamilton is one of the all-time greats at wheel-to-wheel racecraft too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM
But Alonso really was special in 2013, much like in 2012. Hamilton had the second-best car that year and finished 4th in the WDC, Alonso had the third-best car and finished runner-up.
2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements
2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements
Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.
Alonso eclipsed Hamilton throughout 2013 when it came to wheel-to-wheel racecraft. And yes Hamilton is one of the all-time greats at wheel-to-wheel racecraft too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM
But Alonso really was special in 2013, much like in 2012. Hamilton had the second-best car that year and finished 4th in the WDC, Alonso had the third-best car and finished runner-up.
2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements
2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements
Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.
paulguitar said:
Deesee said:
9 more wins and it’s academic..
It is genuinely fun to read here and contribute now and then, but if Lewis surpasses Schmacher's stats, he will have done so without number one status and without much in the way at all of questionable driving.I think it will be hard to seriously argue anything other than Lewis being simply better. I have him rated higher already, even though I still believe Schey was a mighty driver.
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