Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

[paulguitar]

A44RON said:

TobyTR said:

because in your post you mentioned Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity as Hamilton.

Alonso eclipsed Hamilton throughout 2013 when it came to wheel-to-wheel racecraft. And yes Hamilton is one of the all-time greats at wheel-to-wheel racecraft too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM

But Alonso really was special in 2013, much like in 2012. Hamilton had the second-best car that year and finished 4th in the WDC, Alonso had the third-best car and finished runner-up.

2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements

2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements

Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.

And yet Hamilton had the Better of Alonso in his first season.

[A44RON]

I like how that gets rolled out whenever someone mentions Lewis' lack of achievements 2009-2013. They both cancelled each other's title chances out in 2007 through their own stubborn egos. It was a phenomenal rookie year by Lewis that was more consistent than his 2008 title winning year. But he was off the radar four years following that.

That to me and why Schumacher won 91 races by his 246th edges him.

[paulguitar]

A44RON said:

But he was off the radar four years following that.

He absolutely wasn't. For a lot of that time, he was right in the hunt for more titles.

[TobyTR]

paulguitar said:

He absolutely wasn't. For a lot of that time, he was right in the hunt for more titles.

Hamilton wasn't and I would've loved to have seen him end Vettel's run during the V8 dd years. Alonso and Button were the only ones to get somewhat close 2010-2013

[TobyTR]

KevinCamaroSS said:

One of my colleagues worked in the McLaren track-side team during Hamilton's tenure. She says (yes, she is female and therefore must be well above average to make it into the track-side team) that Hamilton is the most gifted and naturally skilled racer she has ever met, even compared to Shumacher.

That is good enough for me!

No question, Hamilton is better, as others have said MS had a default 'cheat' mode that LH does not have. What riles me the most is that he was good enough to win without cheating, but still did. LH wants to race, is prepared to race anybody, from team-mate to WDC opposition and generally comes out on top. LH does not ask for, or need, No 1 status. Race craft? Abu Dhabi 2016, driving as slowly as possible to back up Rosberg into the others without giving NR the opportunity to overtake. Winning as slowly as possible is a rare skill.

Did she work with Schumacher too? If not then it's a bit biased.

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

paulguitar said:

He absolutely wasn't. For a lot of that time, he was right in the hunt for more titles.

Hamilton wasn't and I would've loved to have seen him end Vettel's run during the V8 dd years. Alonso and Button were the only ones to get somewhat close 2010-2013

2012? Without several McLaren clusterfks, he might well have been WDC that year.

[TobyTR]

mattikake said:

TobyTR said:

because in your post you mentioned Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity as Hamilton.

I don't see how that translates to your post about something completely unrelated?

TobyTR said:

Alonso eclipsed Hamilton throughout 2013 when it came to wheel-to-wheel racecraft. And yes Hamilton is one of the all-time greats at wheel-to-wheel racecraft too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM

One standard overtake that any racing driver is capable of. You'll need to provide a bit more than that to convince me of your opinion.

And that 1 or 2 years of good driving eclipses 13 years of world class driving? How is that?

TobyTR said:

But Alonso really was special in 2013, much like in 2012. Hamilton had the second-best car that year and finished 4th in the WDC, Alonso had the third-best car and finished runner-up.

2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements

2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements

Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.

And then you go back to posting about your percieved stats and interpretation of unrelated events to "wheel-to-wheel race craft".

Are you confusing race distance form, with battling through a few corners on track?

1. because it shows a driver eclipsing Hamilton in wheel-to-wheel racecraft throughout an entire season when qualifying behind him on the grid, yet finishing well above him in the championship. He achieved the same in 2010, 2011 and 2012. You said "Hamilton is in a class of one in this respect", which this shows isn't class of one. Anyone who doubts Schumacher and Alonso race craft needs to watch the 2005 and 2006 seasons again - they had some epic battles. And Schumacher's comeback from the puncture in Brazil 2006 was stellar.

2. Not a standard overtake if you watched it properly - they were approaching a DRS zone before the back-straight, Hamilton braked to get Alonso ahead before the DRS zone so he would have the advantage on the back-straight, Alonso anticipated this before he'd even done it and braked too, forcing Hamilton to go first. Out-foxed. Hamilton has been superb/top-flight for 9 of those 13 years, less so for 4 of those. We never witnessed Schumacher like that 4 years at the same age, he was always up there fighting for WDCs.

[mattikake]

sparta6 said:

TobyTR said:

Lewis is a top-5 great no doubt, but more-often-than-not in tricky situations he has to be told what to do by his engineers and doesn't problem solve or come up with solutions himself like Schumacher or Alonso did. So many times over the last 10 years we've seen and heard him micro-managed and re-assured by Bono

Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 31st October 21:51

^^ this ^^

and Hamilton wanted to chuck the towel in at Hockenheim. Fortunately Bono convinced him to keep going and he picked up a point.

This, what?

• if* he has a mental frailty to quit [and think tactically about saving the engine for future races], imo that simply cannot trump Schumacher's mental inability to fight wheel to wheel or without dangerous driving/downright cheating. No way in hell.

No one can be perfect, but it's all too easy to be a ...

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

Did she work with Schumacher too? If not then it's a bit biased.

Either way, we know from people who have worked with Hamilton and also Senna and Prost that they rate Hamilton as least as high as those two.

[mattikake]

TobyTR said:

mattikake said:

TobyTR said:

because in your post you mentioned Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity as Hamilton.

I don't see how that translates to your post about something completely unrelated?

TobyTR said:

Alonso eclipsed Hamilton throughout 2013 when it came to wheel-to-wheel racecraft. And yes Hamilton is one of the all-time greats at wheel-to-wheel racecraft too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM

One standard overtake that any racing driver is capable of. You'll need to provide a bit more than that to convince me of your opinion.

And that 1 or 2 years of good driving eclipses 13 years of world class driving? How is that?

TobyTR said:

But Alonso really was special in 2013, much like in 2012. Hamilton had the second-best car that year and finished 4th in the WDC, Alonso had the third-best car and finished runner-up.

2013 Mercedes
Hamilton average grid position: 3.21 (5 pole positions, including 4 in a row), 1 retirement
Rosberg average grid position: 4.42 (3 pole positions), 2 retirements

2013 Ferrari
Alonso average grid position: 6.11 (0 pole positions, never qualified on the front row all year), 1 retirement
Massa average grid position: 8.16 (0 pole positions, one 2nd place start), 2 retirements

Alonso, despite never starting on the front-row grid that year finished runner-up in the WDC. That is maximising racecraft and arguably more impressive than Schumacher's 1997 season. If Hamilton was on Schumacher's level then he really should've finished runner-up that year.

And then you go back to posting about your percieved stats and interpretation of unrelated events to "wheel-to-wheel race craft".

Are you confusing race distance form, with battling through a few corners on track?

1. because it shows a driver eclipsing Hamilton in wheel-to-wheel racecraft throughout an entire season when qualifying behind him on the grid, yet finishing well above him in the championship. He achieved the same in 2010, 2011 and 2012. You said "Hamilton is in a class of one in this respect", which this shows isn't class of one. Anyone who doubts Schumacher and Alonso race craft needs to watch the 2005 and 2006 seasons again - they had some epic battles. And Schumacher's comeback from the puncture in Brazil 2006 was stellar.

2. Not a standard overtake if you watched it properly - they were approaching a DRS zone before the back-straight, Hamilton braked to get Alonso ahead before the DRS zone so he would have the advantage on the back-straight, Alonso anticipated this before he'd even done it and braked too, forcing Hamilton to go first. Out-foxed. Hamilton has been superb/top-flight for 9 of those 13 years, less so for 4 of those. We never witnessed Schumacher like that 4 years at the same age, he was always up there fighting for WDCs.

At best this is one example. I'm still waiting for proof that alsono's wheel-to-wheel race craft was better than Hamilton's, mano-a-mano

Too many car variables. Another way of looking at it is alonso wasn't a great qualifier (which he admitted himself he isn't). I can show you video of hamilton out crafting alonso at Silverstone in 2009. It will come and go. You need to provide some consistency.

You have to remember in hamilton's first f1 race he skinned alsono round the outside at turn 1 in Australia... no DRS, KERS or anything.

Hamilton broke Alonso in half a season. After showing alonso apparently superior battling race craft at Indianapolis the same year, alonso would never again win an f1 wdc, while throwing tantrums, selling out his own team and making poor career decisions thereafter.

Hamilton is so relentless he also ended kovalinnen's and Rosberg's f1 careers.

Edited by mattikake on Friday 1st November 21:59

[angrymoby]

mattikake said:

Hamilton is so relentless he also ended kovalinnen's and Rosberg's f1 careers.

tbf to Schumacher ...he did try to do that to Barrichello in 2010 at the Hungaroring- just in a different way

Edited by angrymoby on Sunday 3rd November 12:30

[TobyTR]

angrymoby said:

TobyTR said:

'97 Italian GP where a car's speed and engine power are the main factors - Alesi on pole, McLaren-Mercs 5th and 6th, Schumacher qualified 9th and Irvine 10th. The race was won by Coulthard with Alesi 2nd. Schumacher finished 6th and Irvine 8th. "second-best car" and "fast car" apparently

not entirely sure what you're arguing against here ...everyone knows the RS9 was a good engine & the B197 did well at all the power circuits

but again- cars are more than just engines & the '97 roster of tracks had more than just power circuits

TobyTR said:

F310 and F310B were designed and developed by the same personnel.

They were, but that doesn't equate that they had the same performance - indeed the only quotes i can find re: the F310B is that it was much improved - so as i asked before, post up from those who thought it wasn't

TobyTR said:

Eddie couldn't have been that bad to get a Jaguar on the podium twice

& what has that got to do with '97? ...maybe '97 was an off year? maybe, just maybe Eddie improved & finally matured in those 4 years??

TobyTR said:

and Ron Dennis to consider replacing Coulthard with him...

& yet he didn't

We have established the Benetton was both faster and more reliable than the Ferrari F310B.

In the Autosport video I posted the Journalists said "the 96 and 97 Ferraris were the years he did his most amazing races" and "the 97 pace deficit was similar to the '96 Ferrari". They ranked the F310B 12th out of 20, just ahead of the Benetton B192 and Jordan 191, and behind the Benetton B193. That says it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58COy-XoMNs

Now, what evidence are you going to supply us other than your opinion? Where are these quotes from the experts that the F310B was much improved? Still not seeing any evidence for "second-best" car.

[TobyTR]

mattikake said:

At best this is one example. I'm still waiting for proof that alsono's wheel-to-wheel race craft was better than Hamilton's, mano-a-mano

Too many car variables. Another way of looking at it is alonso wasn't a great qualifier (which he admitted himself he isn't). I can show you video of hamilton out crafting alonso at Silverstone in 2009. It will come and go. You need to provide some consistency.

You have to remember in hamilton's first f1 race he skinned alsono round the outside at turn 1 in Australia... no DRS, KERS or anything.

Hamilton broke Alonso in half a season. After showing alonso apparently superior battling race craft at Indianapolis the same year, alonso would never again win an f1 wdc, while throwing tantrums, selling out his own team and making poor career decisions thereafter.

Hamilton is so relentless he also ended kovalinnen's and Rosberg's f1 careers.

Edited by mattikake on Friday 1st November 21:59

1. Alonso proved that "mano-a-mano" 2010-2013 by qualifying behind him and finishing ahead of him in those championships. That is mano-a-mano and that is consistent. If 4 seasons isn't consistent then what is lol. And that is Alonso's greatest strength - consistency

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/46237953

2. You're right, he did that great move around Alonso in his first F1 race, but who finished where in that race?... same in Silverstone 2009, Hamilton skinned Alonso, but then Alonso got him back to finish ahead that race.

3. You're right, but he went on to beat Hamilton in inferior cars from 2010-2013. - clearly he never recovered from 2007

Edited by TobyTR on Friday 1st November 22:17

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

3. You're right, but he went on to beat Hamilton in inferior cars from 2010-2013.

Your oversimplification skills are awe-inspiring.

[TobyTR]

paulguitar said:

Your oversimplification skills are awe-inspiring.

can't deny it didn't happen though. Why thank you

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

paulguitar said:

Your oversimplification skills are awe-inspiring.

can't deny it didn't happen though. Why thank you

If only we had a season where we could compare Lewis and Fernando in equal cars for a representative result...

Oh, wait!!!

[TobyTR]

Trotting out that old chestnut again.

2007 - Hamilton 109pts
Alonso 109pts

2010 - Alonso 252pts
- Hamilton 240pts

2011 - Alonso 257pts
- Hamilton 227pts

2012 - Alonso 278pts
- Hamilton 190pts

2013 - Alonso 242pts
- Hamilton 189pts

Yeah, Hamilton really showed Alonso who's boss eh.

The data shows Hamilton can only challenge for and win championships when he's in the best or second-best car. Even in the second-best car like in 2011 (Button did) and 2013 he still didn't manage that and got eclipsed by other drivers. Schumacher did manage that like Alonso. I know this will hurt the Schumacher haters/Hamilton lovers, but it is what it is.

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

Trotting out that old chestnut again.

2007 - Hamilton 109pts
Alonso 109pts

2007 was Hamilton's first year in F1. His performance was mind-boggling. It's amazing you try to diminish this, almost as if you genuinely don't understand the quality of his performance that year.


How do you account for Hamilton's stats in spec series? How was he able to win more than 75% of the races in 2005 F3 euro series, in identical cars for example?

[TobyTR]

paulguitar said:

TobyTR said:

Trotting out that old chestnut again.

2007 - Hamilton 109pts
Alonso 109pts

2007 was Hamilton's first year in F1. His performance was mind-boggling. It's amazing you try to diminish this, almost as if you genuinely don't understand the quality of his performance that year.


How do you account for Hamilton's stats in spec series? How was he able to win more than 75% of the races in 2005 F3 euro series, in identical cars for example?

I haven't diminished it at all. It was the best rookie season in modern F1 and Hamilton thrived on being the underdog that year against Alonso. As someone else mentioned before it was a better year for him than 2008 - and it actually was. Hamilton scored more podiums and points in 2007 than 2008, and he made less mistakes than in 2008 too. It was incredible to watch.

However, it doesn't cancel out what happened 2010-2013 when he had much more experience under his belt and so many times on this forum people scream "but 2007!" like it somehow cancels it out in defence of anything Hamilton related. 2007 was more impressive than his 2008 campaign.

Yes he was great in feeder series. But this is about Schumacher vs Hamilton, and Schumacher was relentless 1991-2006 every year. Hamilton has not been relentless every year, which is why the stats have Schumacher on 91 wins and 7 championships by 246 races and Hamilton on 82 wins and 5 championships by 246 races, despite Hamilton having the most dominant cars for a longer period in modern F1 history.

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

the stats have Schumacher on 91 wins and 7 championships by 246 races and Hamilton on 82 wins and 5 championships by 246 races, despite Hamilton having the most dominant cars for a longer period in modern F1 history.

It's even more amazing looking at those stats now actually, I did not realize it was as tight as that, but with Hamilton never having had number one status at any time.