Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?
Discussion
KevinCamaroSS said:
Nobody has said Schumacher is useless, only that he is not a true great because he resorted to cheating, had the backing of the FIA and always had a compliant team-mate.
Prost also had the backing of FIA, with some unsavoury decisions made in his favour, utilizing his French political leverage.Bottas is a compliant team mate, we have seen this again in 2019.
Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren.
Prost is one of the true greats.
sparta6 said:
Prost also had the backing of FIA, with some unsavoury decisions made in his favour, utilizing his French political leverage.
Bottas is a compliant team mate, we have seen this again in 2019.
Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren.
Prost is one of the true greats.
You seem to forget hamilton is also a compliant teammate...moving back over and keeping his word in Hungary (I think it was) for instance.Bottas is a compliant team mate, we have seen this again in 2019.
Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren.
Prost is one of the true greats.
That’s how good teammates work, they do it for the benefit of the team and it’s entirely different to having a defecto number 1 and 2 written into contracts as Schumacher had
Something else that popped up the other day that underlines the enormity of ferraris dominance if you needed it, Aldo Costas interview on beyond the grid podcast - 90,000km of testing in one season, with 3 test teams running in parallel!
With only M.Schu allowed to be the actual winny one.
To to denigrate his talent, but the advantage afforded to him compared to Hamilton today was off the scale.
With only M.Schu allowed to be the actual winny one.
To to denigrate his talent, but the advantage afforded to him compared to Hamilton today was off the scale.
TobyTR said:
I provided evidence with my points - which you conveniently ignored - and you still haven't provided any evidence yourself to back up your points. So here you are again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM - Alonso outfoxing Hamilton Canada 2013, not 'race pace'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3zTFqNefI - Alonso beating Hamilton wheel-to-wheel in a tight battle, not 'race pace'
yeah, he's really "in a class of one"
What have I ignored?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM - Alonso outfoxing Hamilton Canada 2013, not 'race pace'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3zTFqNefI - Alonso beating Hamilton wheel-to-wheel in a tight battle, not 'race pace'
yeah, he's really "in a class of one"
So you have provided 2 videos - one from 2013 and one from 2012 to back up your point that "that Alonso eclipsed Hamilton across multiple seasons in wheel-to-wheel racecraft".
Two.
That I can remember, Hamilton overtook Alonso 9 times 2007 - 2010. After that I got bored counting, seeing as I apparently only have to beat 2.
You can use videos for evidence of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH7Kk37-53Q and https://vimeo.com/85619413
You can start your count with the first video. The very first clip shows Hamilton doing a double overtake in the first corner in his first race in F1... skinning Alonso in the process.
Also can you remind everyone why you're using Alonso to prove Schumacher is better than Hamilton?
TobyTR said:
Yet if anyone listened to you on here, Schumacher is comparable to Maldonado and only wins by ramming through the field..... Wrong again.
No-one needs to listen to me. Most already agree Schumacher was a liability to gentlemanly conduct. It's you who needs to get people listening to your argument. So far it seems you are failing.3 times Schumacher deliberately crashed into a rival, not including nearly shoving Rubens into the pit wall in Hungary. So while I maintain he was as dangerous, you're right, he's not directly comparable to Maldonardo. He's worse. In the entire history of F1 only Prost deliberately crashed into a driver, and Senna the next year returning the favour.
Schumacher - 3, everyone else combined (774 drivers) - 2.
Now there's an outstanding stat for you.
TobyTR said:
It doesn't matter how long you've been watching F1, if you're biased then you are. Calling you out on your biased nonsense isn't "a very mentally unstable thing to say" - that's an attempt at a cop-out, it's called hitting the nail on the head.
No you said that "my opinion is biased". All opinions are biased because all opinions are someone's personal pov. If you can't understand that, you have a fundamental cognitive issue.TobyTR said:
On page 21 of this thread you said "I cannot think of one single moment where Schumacher demonstrated anywhere near the same level of wheel-to-wheel racecraft. Even masters of overtaking racecraft and understanding like Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity. IMO Hamilton is literally in a class of one in this respect." - which is total biased nonsense.
.It is a clear mentally unstable thing to say someone's opinion is biased and as such, is nonsense.
Teddy Lop said:
Something else that popped up the other day that underlines the enormity of ferraris dominance if you needed it, Aldo Costas interview on beyond the grid podcast - 90,000km of testing in one season, with 3 test teams running in parallel!
Impressive work rate with results to match !Virtual ban on testing has damaged F1 since 2014.
PU development lockout in favour of Brackley's early advantage has hampered evolution.
sparta6 said:
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren.
Those of us on Earth add up the points at the end of each season, so it is 2/1 to Hamilton.Isn't it 2012 where Hamilton had more than twice the amount of retirement (4or 5?, not sure any were his fault actually)of Button and still finished ahead in the championship?
How bad was button that year????
E34-3.2 said:
sparta6 said:
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren.
Those of us on Earth add up the points at the end of each season, so it is 2/1 to Hamilton.Isn't it 2012 where Hamilton had more than twice the amount of retirement (4or 5?, not sure any were his fault actually)of Button and still finished ahead in the championship?
How bad was button that year????
In finance the quantum is valued over the license period. F1 is a business first and foremost.
Button delivered a better yield over the term duration.
sparta6 said:
E34-3.2 said:
sparta6 said:
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren.
Those of us on Earth add up the points at the end of each season, so it is 2/1 to Hamilton.Isn't it 2012 where Hamilton had more than twice the amount of retirement (4or 5?, not sure any were his fault actually)of Button and still finished ahead in the championship?
How bad was button that year????
In finance the quantum is valued over the license period. F1 is a business first and foremost.
Button delivered a better yield over the term duration.
One thing for sure is that as soon as Hamilton went his own way, McLaren not only never won a race again or even a pole, but nearly every single sponsors left them.
Business wise, Hamilton is the most recognised driver around the globe (on all time list) and and money magnet for sponsors.
I can't say the same of Button even when they were racing together. Someone once said that Button could walk the paddock nearly incognito while Hamilton was constantly harassed by journalists or fans.
I don't think Button would have been able to deal with that pressure. Great driver, very opportunistic but not as marketable and profitable as Hamilton.
I would compare Button as a Keke Rosberg of his time.
sparta6 said:
E34-3.2 said:
sparta6 said:
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren.
Those of us on Earth add up the points at the end of each season, so it is 2/1 to Hamilton.Isn't it 2012 where Hamilton had more than twice the amount of retirement (4or 5?, not sure any were his fault actually)of Button and still finished ahead in the championship?
How bad was button that year????
In finance the quantum is valued over the license period. F1 is a business first and foremost.
Button delivered a better yield over the term duration.
Hungary - gearbox failure
Italy - hamilton hits Massa
Singapore - Webber hits Hamilton
2011 retirements
Canada - Hit by button
Spa - Lewis fault, hit Kobayashi
Brazil - gearbox failure
2012 retirements
Spain - Lewis taken out by Maldonado
Germany - Suspension problem
Spa - Hit by Roman
Singapore - gearbox failure
Abu Dhabi - mechanical problem
Brazil - hit by Hulkenberg
So I make it 5 mechanical problems, 5 times hit by other drivers and 2 times its Lewis’s fault.
Shape it which ever way you like. Hamilton had 10 wins to buttons 8, beat button 2/1 in the championship and brought more financial backing and promotion to the team than button did....so lewis delivered a better yield if you want to go down that route.
E34-3.2 said:
Not sure about your theory on that one.
Purely a financial quantum, and that's before we factor in the salary differential between drivers.Hamilton became a mega brand once Team Mercedes started steam-rollering all other teams.
Until Mercedes he had a WDC by the slimmest of margins and was most famous outside of F1 for dating a singer.
The odds were stacked against Button and Alonso as Uncle Ron was firmly in Hamilton's corner, in the same way as Uncle Ron had been in Mika Hakinnen's corner. No preferential contract required.
I am yet to see Schumacher's actual conract with Bennetton or Ferrari so unable to comment on alledged preferential status.
Prost certainly had the ear of Ballestre and the FIA - but that doesn't stop him being a great.
Ofcourse this thread should've been titled "Who's the greatest sportsman ?" In which case many would dsay Hamilton.
John McEnroe wasn't particularly sportsman like, but he sure was one of the greatest.
I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.
sparta6 said:
Purely a financial quantum, and that's before we factor in the salary differential between drivers.
Hamilton became a mega brand once Team Mercedes started steam-rollering all other teams.
Until Mercedes he had a WDC by the slimmest of margins and was most famous outside of F1 for dating a singer.
The odds were stacked against Button and Alonso as Uncle Ron was firmly in Hamilton's corner, in the same way as Uncle Ron had been in Mika Hakinnen's corner. No preferential contract required.
I am yet to see Schumacher's actual conract with Bennetton or Ferrari so unable to comment on alledged preferential status.
Prost certainly had the ear of Ballestre and the FIA - but that doesn't stop him being a great.
Ofcourse this thread should've been titled "Who's the greatest sportsman ?" In which case many would dsay Hamilton.
John McEnroe wasn't particularly sportsman like, but he sure was one of the greatest.
I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.
Haha you really must try harder to hide your trolling....you’re slippingHamilton became a mega brand once Team Mercedes started steam-rollering all other teams.
Until Mercedes he had a WDC by the slimmest of margins and was most famous outside of F1 for dating a singer.
The odds were stacked against Button and Alonso as Uncle Ron was firmly in Hamilton's corner, in the same way as Uncle Ron had been in Mika Hakinnen's corner. No preferential contract required.
I am yet to see Schumacher's actual conract with Bennetton or Ferrari so unable to comment on alledged preferential status.
Prost certainly had the ear of Ballestre and the FIA - but that doesn't stop him being a great.
Ofcourse this thread should've been titled "Who's the greatest sportsman ?" In which case many would dsay Hamilton.
John McEnroe wasn't particularly sportsman like, but he sure was one of the greatest.
I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.
Of course Ron is going to employ an expensive 2 time champion then give his unproven rookie preferential treatment....it’s the logical thing to do, and then do it again by employing the 2009 champion
What utter rubbish
I actually can’t wait for Max to get a dominant car and start ‘steamrolling’ championships, just as Schumacher, Vettel and Lewis have....your opinion will have nowhere to hide from the hypocrisy meter.
Edited by 37chevy on Saturday 23 November 17:44
On the subject of Prost, you’ve got to remove one of his championships because of the dominance of his team, right? I mean the Williams was so far ahead, the gap between them and Senna in the Mclaren is the same as the Mercedes to the Renault this year....and you think Mercedes is dominant...
37chevy said:
sparta6 said:
Purely a financial quantum, and that's before we factor in the salary differential between drivers.
Hamilton became a mega brand once Team Mercedes started steam-rollering all other teams.
Until Mercedes he had a WDC by the slimmest of margins and was most famous outside of F1 for dating a singer.
The odds were stacked against Button and Alonso as Uncle Ron was firmly in Hamilton's corner, in the same way as Uncle Ron had been in Mika Hakinnen's corner. No preferential contract required.
I am yet to see Schumacher's actual conract with Bennetton or Ferrari so unable to comment on alledged preferential status.
Prost certainly had the ear of Ballestre and the FIA - but that doesn't stop him being a great.
Ofcourse this thread should've been titled "Who's the greatest sportsman ?" In which case many would dsay Hamilton.
John McEnroe wasn't particularly sportsman like, but he sure was one of the greatest.
I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.
Haha you really must try harder to hide your trolling....you’re slippingHamilton became a mega brand once Team Mercedes started steam-rollering all other teams.
Until Mercedes he had a WDC by the slimmest of margins and was most famous outside of F1 for dating a singer.
The odds were stacked against Button and Alonso as Uncle Ron was firmly in Hamilton's corner, in the same way as Uncle Ron had been in Mika Hakinnen's corner. No preferential contract required.
I am yet to see Schumacher's actual conract with Bennetton or Ferrari so unable to comment on alledged preferential status.
Prost certainly had the ear of Ballestre and the FIA - but that doesn't stop him being a great.
Ofcourse this thread should've been titled "Who's the greatest sportsman ?" In which case many would dsay Hamilton.
John McEnroe wasn't particularly sportsman like, but he sure was one of the greatest.
I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.
Of course Ron is going to employ an expensive 2 time champion then give his unproven rookie preferential treatment....it’s the logical thing to do, and then do it again by employing the 2009 champion
What utter rubbish
I re-watched Monaco quali today and was reminded of his insanely good Q3 lap for P1: https://youtu.be/Ej8n56fkgWY
His 'magical' Mercedes stepped out at one point, he had to catch it and still went faster than anyone else.
He does have the best car to be fair. A car he got by being the best when it mattered, same way he got the car he had before. The only person to beat him over a season in the Mercedes did so by a margin so slim that a single piece of good/bad luck would have swung the result. That person then retired and told the world the effort to beat him just one year took more than a year of effort, and had emotionally half killed him - so not really repeatable... It was however proof that Lewis does not get preferential treatment and that he really does deserve the seat he has.
Forgive me if I'm reading into this wrong but;
Are you being deliberately inconsistent with your points?
sparta6 said:
The odds were stacked against Button and Alonso as Uncle Ron was firmly in Hamilton's corner, in the same way as Uncle Ron had been in Mika Hakinnen's corner. No preferential contract required.
Speculation at best. But this goes against Hamilton?sparta6 said:
I am yet to see Schumacher's actual conract with Bennetton or Ferrari so unable to comment on alledged preferential status.
No.1 contractual status was openly acknowledged and exercised many times. You're never going to see a private business contract in the public domain, so somewhat of a kop out to say these facts can't be proven so can't be used. But yet this doesn't go against Schumacher?sparta6 said:
Prost certainly had the ear of Ballestre and the FIA - but that doesn't stop him being a great.
So Prost had preferential FIA treatment. But this doesn't go against Prost?Are you being deliberately inconsistent with your points?
sparta6 said:
I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.
As for the merc not being the best car every season and and not always being the best car throughout a whole season (like this one). And that going by Brazil the Ferrari and Honda engines seem to have overtaken Mercedes in the power stakes, I still think Hamilton will have his work cut out. Mercedes may not have the best of every car component, but they are certainly the best "team". You can put that down to Wolff, Lauda, Allison and other key members but Hamilton forms a vital component of that team too.Lewis was a key ingredient when Toto and Lauda decided to go ahead with the modern Mercedes F1 project.
It might also be a huge corporate exercise, but in its formation the current Merc F1 team was assembled by racers and there is genuine soul present. Lewis is no more Mercedes man than they are his team, it's a near perfect and very respectful balance imo. They have focused on what really matters to go racing, and just look at the results.
It might also be a huge corporate exercise, but in its formation the current Merc F1 team was assembled by racers and there is genuine soul present. Lewis is no more Mercedes man than they are his team, it's a near perfect and very respectful balance imo. They have focused on what really matters to go racing, and just look at the results.
sparta6 said:
Ofcourse this thread should've been titled "Who's the greatest sportsman ?" In which case many would dsay Hamilton.
I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.
Greatest driver of all time:I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.
S.Loeb.
I have been privilege to see many races of all sorts and talk to many drivers and that guy stand above all of them by a mile. Just on another planet when in his prime.
Not sure that Hamilton will pass Schumacher records yet. The competition is fiercer than what Michael ever had in his time, especially between 2001 and 2004 where titles were basically given to him. Huge FIA support and tailored made tyres.
sparta6 said:
Prost also had the backing of FIA, with some unsavoury decisions made in his favour, utilizing his French political leverage.
That is simply untrue.It's assumed because Balestre and Prost were both French, which is an absurdly simplistic way to view the relationship between two people who knew eachother far beyond a shared nationality.
mattikake said:
TobyTR said:
I provided evidence with my points - which you conveniently ignored - and you still haven't provided any evidence yourself to back up your points. So here you are again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM - Alonso outfoxing Hamilton Canada 2013, not 'race pace'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3zTFqNefI - Alonso beating Hamilton wheel-to-wheel in a tight battle, not 'race pace'
yeah, he's really "in a class of one"
What have I ignored?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3kbxjBAYmM - Alonso outfoxing Hamilton Canada 2013, not 'race pace'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3zTFqNefI - Alonso beating Hamilton wheel-to-wheel in a tight battle, not 'race pace'
yeah, he's really "in a class of one"
So you have provided 2 videos - one from 2013 and one from 2012 to back up your point that "that Alonso eclipsed Hamilton across multiple seasons in wheel-to-wheel racecraft".
Two.
That I can remember, Hamilton overtook Alonso 9 times 2007 - 2010. After that I got bored counting, seeing as I apparently only have to beat 2.
You can use videos for evidence of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH7Kk37-53Q and https://vimeo.com/85619413
You can start your count with the first video. The very first clip shows Hamilton doing a double overtake in the first corner in his first race in F1... skinning Alonso in the process. skinned Alonso on that corner, but Alonso beat him in the race
Also can you remind everyone why you're using Alonso to prove Schumacher is better than Hamilton? - you incorrectly said Hamilton is in a class of one - we've now established he isn't
TobyTR said:
Yet if anyone listened to you on here, Schumacher is comparable to Maldonado and only wins by ramming through the field..... Wrong again.
No-one needs to listen to me. Most already agree Schumacher was a liability to gentlemanly conduct. It's you who needs to get people listening to your argument. So far it seems you are failing.3 times Schumacher deliberately crashed into a rival, not including nearly shoving Rubens into the pit wall in Hungary. So while I maintain he was as dangerous, you're right, he's not directly comparable to Maldonardo. He's worse. In the entire history of F1 only Prost deliberately crashed into a driver, and Senna the next year returning the favour.
Schumacher - 3, everyone else combined (774 drivers) - 2.
Now there's an outstanding stat for you.
TobyTR said:
It doesn't matter how long you've been watching F1, if you're biased then you are. Calling you out on your biased nonsense isn't "a very mentally unstable thing to say" - that's an attempt at a cop-out, it's called hitting the nail on the head.
No you said that "my opinion is biased". All opinions are biased because all opinions are someone's personal pov. If you can't understand that, you have a fundamental cognitive issue.TobyTR said:
On page 21 of this thread you said "I cannot think of one single moment where Schumacher demonstrated anywhere near the same level of wheel-to-wheel racecraft. Even masters of overtaking racecraft and understanding like Lauda, Keke, Jones, Mansell, Prost haven't shown such intelligence and clinical quick thinking nor with anywhere near the regularity. IMO Hamilton is literally in a class of one in this respect." - which is total biased nonsense.
.It is a clear mentally unstable thing to say someone's opinion is biased and as such, is nonsense.
I said you are spouting biased nonsense, which we've now established you have been, still attempting a cop-out trying to claim 'mental instability' because it's not gone your way.
Seeing as you didn't comment on that Schumacher's final race for Ferrari at Brazil 2006 video, does that mean you now retract your statement "Schumacher had nothing special or exciting in his moves, mostly dirt, cheat and ram. Little different to the likes of many midfield problem drivers like Maldonado or Perez."??...... I notice you went particularly quiet on that, your emotions clearly got the better of you. You do talk a good game with "most agree with me" though
I've openly mentioned Schumacher's 3 indiscretions 1991-2006 and squeezing Barrichello in 2010 earlier in this thread which totally deserves to dent his character and sporting behaviour, but that doesn't detract from his ability in an F1 car, it's a stain on his character. I've also put forward the arguments for Schumacher's ability in lesser machinery and the statistics that back this up on previous pages. Even if you take three wins off his resume (the indiscretions didn't impact his race win total anyway), that still leaves him with 88 wins by 246 races.
Mercedes has won 76% of all races 2014-present, Ferrari managed 67% 2000-2004, even less if you count 2000-2006... Red Bull 53% 2010-2013.
As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, it's okay to mention Ferrari's Bridgestone tyre advantage from 2001-2004, but lets all just brush over the fact of the three-year ban on PU engine development that gave Mercedes a four-year head-start.
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