Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?
Discussion
macdeb said:
easily as equal and in my eyes Hamilton is the greater. If you take the championship the Schumacker cheated Hill out of (yes, Cheated) they would now be equal championships.Rookie mistake really
vdn said:
Alonso knows that Lewis is a legend in the making; saying he's at least equal to MS when he hasn't even retired yet.
But; there's a few armchair experts on PH who know better!
Well 7 is more than 6.But; there's a few armchair experts on PH who know better!
Lewis should cruise upto Schumacher's record in the amazing Mercedes next year.
sparta6 said:
macdeb said:
easily as equal and in my eyes Hamilton is the greater. If you take the championship the Schumacker cheated Hill out of (yes, Cheated) they would now be equal championships.Rookie mistake really
Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
mattikake said:
To be clear, the F3 history with Mika was at Macau. Mika won race 1 from pole, race 2 Mika found himself behind Schumacher and upon overtaking, Schumacher simply shoved him into the wall on the main straight. I remember Mika getting out throwing his steering wheel on the floor. He wasn't slightly impressed...
Schumacher repeated the same in spa only mika backed out of it before he put him on the grass. How the pro-schumi camp can call this a "fair" fight, and "no dodgy moves" i find truly staggering. He cheated, again, and dangerously, again.
Fine squeeze someone to the edge of the track, but not beyond it or move to deny space BEFORE the other driver gets there, but don't do both. Dirt, cheat, ram.
At least mika got to use zonta with relative ease to show Schumacher's distinctly average battling skills. (The move to take zonta on the inside by Schumacher was as plain as it was obvious)
Okay that's one squeezing attempt at Spa in 2000, which Hakkinen came out on top and had no outcome on that championship - now how about the rest of that season - name us more examples of "dirt, cheat, ram" that year to prove he didn't win that title fairlySchumacher repeated the same in spa only mika backed out of it before he put him on the grass. How the pro-schumi camp can call this a "fair" fight, and "no dodgy moves" i find truly staggering. He cheated, again, and dangerously, again.
Fine squeeze someone to the edge of the track, but not beyond it or move to deny space BEFORE the other driver gets there, but don't do both. Dirt, cheat, ram.
At least mika got to use zonta with relative ease to show Schumacher's distinctly average battling skills. (The move to take zonta on the inside by Schumacher was as plain as it was obvious)
Schumacher won in a fair fight in 2000 but it doesn't suit your argument again.
Edited by A44RON on Tuesday 3rd December 03:25
37chevy said:
Think people forget how good Montoya was in the Williams and how close he came to winning the championship. Probably the best driver never to win if IMHO....and he has won the Indy500 and Daytona 500 since leaving F1
Montoya was quality and still one of my favourite drivers. Max Verstappen reminds me of Montoya a lot, but a bit more crashy/less spacial awarenessmacdeb said:
Exige77 said:
Graveworm said:
Alonso was asked if Hamilton was better than Schumacher yesterday. He replied that he is "At least equal to"
And as I’ve said a few times, Hamilton’s career is not over yet. He keeps pumping in great performances while this thread is running. Yesterday might not have been that exciting but what a performance !!
Not a foot wrong, fast, controlled, taking care of his tyres, on original 3 power trains allowed, pole, fastest lap, lap record and great way to finish the season.
This is a man (and team) and the very top of their profession.
easily as equal and in my eyes Hamilton is the greater. If you take the championship the Schumacker cheated Hill out of (yes, Cheated) they would now be equal championships.
Cheated Hill out of? Schumacher moved to Ferrari in 1996 to help Hill get one
paulguitar said:
Perhaps so, but i’d imagine even Damon was shocked that another driver would simply deliberately crash into him to seal the title.
Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
Hill wasn't even alongside Schumacher hence why the contact was with Schumacher's right rear and Hill front left.Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
You really need to let it go.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
paulguitar said:
Perhaps so, but i’d imagine even Damon was shocked that another driver would simply deliberately crash into him to seal the title.
Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
Hill wasn't even alongside Schumacher hence why the contact was with Schumacher's right rear and Hill front left.Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
You really need to let it go.
HighwayStar said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
paulguitar said:
Perhaps so, but i’d imagine even Damon was shocked that another driver would simply deliberately crash into him to seal the title.
Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
Hill wasn't even alongside Schumacher hence why the contact was with Schumacher's right rear and Hill front left.Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
You really need to let it go.
Entering an ever-decreasing-gap with Senna or Schumacher rarely worked for anyone.
Unfortunately Damon let the red mist take control
sparta6 said:
In the dominant Williams and on the verge of a WDC, Hill should have been patient for 30 seconds.
Entering an ever-decreasing-gap with Senna or Schumacher rarely worked for anyone.
Unfortunately Damon let the red mist take control
hardly dominantEntering an ever-decreasing-gap with Senna or Schumacher rarely worked for anyone.
Unfortunately Damon let the red mist take control
and hindsight is a wonderful thing...hill had no idea schumachers car was damaged, it could have been his only chance to pass
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
paulguitar said:
Perhaps so, but i’d imagine even Damon was shocked that another driver would simply deliberately crash into him to seal the title.
Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
Hill wasn't even alongside Schumacher hence why the contact was with Schumacher's right rear and Hill front left.Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
You really need to let it go.
Entering an ever-decreasing-gap with Senna or Schumacher rarely worked for anyone.
Unfortunately Damon let the red mist take control
Schumacher v Villeneuve 1997... Didn't pull it off this time though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt-3KT6ktHU
Damon has described himself as "not the best overtaker". He knows he screwed it up. He saw a gap and went for it, was at Michael's mercy and someone with more experience (Damon didn't start racing cars until relatively late in his life) may have evaluated the situation differently, even without knowing Michael had hit the wall just before.
Damon had a couple of similar collisions with Michael in 1995 as well, where he came from miles back and they both ended up out of the race. At Silverstone and Monza, if I recall.
Doesn't mean Michael didn't purposefully drive into him to secure his world championship though. As much as I think most drivers on the grid, in Damon's position, wouldn't have gone for that gap, I also think most drivers in Schumacher's position - at least the drivers back then in 1994 - wouldn't have turned in on Damon. Nowadays, I think things have changed enough that Damon would have had no chance of getting past any current driver with that move, but that is how the sport evolves I guess. Someone pushes the boundaries, they get away with it, it becomes the norm. And Schumacher wasn't the one who pushed this boundary. it was, ironically, possibly the cleanest driver of the 1980s... Prost.
EDITED - got my years wrong. The other collisions were in 1995, not 1996 - where for the first part of the year Schumacher was having an unusually good day if his Ferrari lasted all the way to the starting grid.
Damon had a couple of similar collisions with Michael in 1995 as well, where he came from miles back and they both ended up out of the race. At Silverstone and Monza, if I recall.
Doesn't mean Michael didn't purposefully drive into him to secure his world championship though. As much as I think most drivers on the grid, in Damon's position, wouldn't have gone for that gap, I also think most drivers in Schumacher's position - at least the drivers back then in 1994 - wouldn't have turned in on Damon. Nowadays, I think things have changed enough that Damon would have had no chance of getting past any current driver with that move, but that is how the sport evolves I guess. Someone pushes the boundaries, they get away with it, it becomes the norm. And Schumacher wasn't the one who pushed this boundary. it was, ironically, possibly the cleanest driver of the 1980s... Prost.
EDITED - got my years wrong. The other collisions were in 1995, not 1996 - where for the first part of the year Schumacher was having an unusually good day if his Ferrari lasted all the way to the starting grid.
Edited by kiseca on Tuesday 3rd December 16:09
Edited by kiseca on Tuesday 3rd December 16:10
ELUSIVEJIM said:
paulguitar said:
Perhaps so, but i’d imagine even Damon was shocked that another driver would simply deliberately crash into him to seal the title.
Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
Hill wasn't even alongside Schumacher hence why the contact was with Schumacher's right rear and Hill front left.Even 25 years on, I am still disgusted by Schumacher’s bahaviour that day. Sadly we came to see in future races it was a measure of his true character.
You really need to let it go.
It’s a huge thing for me, which is why this is a big deal.
You must surely know deep down that Schumacher did it deliberately, but seemingly you don't care.
kiseca said:
Damon has described himself as "not the best overtaker". He knows he screwed it up. He saw a gap and went for it, was at Michael's mercy and someone with more experience (Damon didn't start racing cars until relatively late in his life) may have evaluated the situation differently, even without knowing Michael had hit the wall just before.
Damon had a couple of similar collisions with Michael in 1995 as well, where he came from miles back and they both ended up out of the race. At Silverstone and Monza, if I recall.
Doesn't mean Michael didn't purposefully drive into him to secure his world championship though. As much as I think most drivers on the grid, in Damon's position, wouldn't have gone for that gap, I also think most drivers in Schumacher's position - at least the drivers back then in 1994 - wouldn't have turned in on Damon. Nowadays, I think things have changed enough that Damon would have had no chance of getting past any current driver with that move, but that is how the sport evolves I guess. Someone pushes the boundaries, they get away with it, it becomes the norm. And Schumacher wasn't the one who pushed this boundary. it was, ironically, possibly the cleanest driver of the 1980s... Prost.
EDITED - got my years wrong. The other collisions were in 1995, not 1996 - where for the first part of the year Schumacher was having an unusually good day if his Ferrari lasted all the way to the starting grid.
They recently showed Hill and Herbert (Who went on to win) watching the '95 Silverstone GP and giving their thoughts. They were pretty clear that Schumacher was done when he strangely slowed, very early, unlike any other lap out wide, leaving loads of room on the inside then swept across when Hill went for the open door. Is it cheating or using the rules in a way they were never intended? Damon had a couple of similar collisions with Michael in 1995 as well, where he came from miles back and they both ended up out of the race. At Silverstone and Monza, if I recall.
Doesn't mean Michael didn't purposefully drive into him to secure his world championship though. As much as I think most drivers on the grid, in Damon's position, wouldn't have gone for that gap, I also think most drivers in Schumacher's position - at least the drivers back then in 1994 - wouldn't have turned in on Damon. Nowadays, I think things have changed enough that Damon would have had no chance of getting past any current driver with that move, but that is how the sport evolves I guess. Someone pushes the boundaries, they get away with it, it becomes the norm. And Schumacher wasn't the one who pushed this boundary. it was, ironically, possibly the cleanest driver of the 1980s... Prost.
EDITED - got my years wrong. The other collisions were in 1995, not 1996 - where for the first part of the year Schumacher was having an unusually good day if his Ferrari lasted all the way to the starting grid.
A44RON said:
mattikake said:
To be clear, the F3 history with Mika was at Macau. Mika won race 1 from pole, race 2 Mika found himself behind Schumacher and upon overtaking, Schumacher simply shoved him into the wall on the main straight. I remember Mika getting out throwing his steering wheel on the floor. He wasn't slightly impressed...
Schumacher repeated the same in spa only mika backed out of it before he put him on the grass. How the pro-schumi camp can call this a "fair" fight, and "no dodgy moves" i find truly staggering. He cheated, again, and dangerously, again.
Fine squeeze someone to the edge of the track, but not beyond it or move to deny space BEFORE the other driver gets there, but don't do both. Dirt, cheat, ram.
At least mika got to use zonta with relative ease to show Schumacher's distinctly average battling skills. (The move to take zonta on the inside by Schumacher was as plain as it was obvious)
Okay that's one squeezing attempt at Spa in 2000, which Hakkinen came out on top and had no outcome on that championship - now how about the rest of that season - name us more examples of "dirt, cheat, ram" that year to prove he didn't win that title fairlySchumacher repeated the same in spa only mika backed out of it before he put him on the grass. How the pro-schumi camp can call this a "fair" fight, and "no dodgy moves" i find truly staggering. He cheated, again, and dangerously, again.
Fine squeeze someone to the edge of the track, but not beyond it or move to deny space BEFORE the other driver gets there, but don't do both. Dirt, cheat, ram.
At least mika got to use zonta with relative ease to show Schumacher's distinctly average battling skills. (The move to take zonta on the inside by Schumacher was as plain as it was obvious)
Schumacher won in a fair fight in 2000 but it doesn't suit your argument again.
Edited by A44RON on Tuesday 3rd December 03:25
Overly aggressive, fine. Accidental contact, fine. Getting it wrong, fine. Deliberately using dirty and dangerous driving to hold a position he would've fairly lost, aka cheating, is proof that his mindset was seriously wrong for a racing driver.
I can't stand cheats in anything. Never have. Never will. ("Accidently" caused a bit of pain to remind them cheating is the lowest of the low in a competition that is supposed to be a game.) If you can't play to the rules, you're not playing the same game.
Maybe it's just a British thing?
mattikake said:
Imo one instance of deliberately dirty/cheat driving is more than enough for me thanks. Especially given he'd done the same twice before already - both in an attempt to avoid losing.
Overly aggressive, fine. Accidental contact, fine. Getting it wrong, fine. Deliberately using dirty and dangerous driving to hold a position he would've fairly lost, aka cheating, is proof that his mindset was seriously wrong for a racing driver.
I can't stand cheats in anything. Never have. Never will. ("Accidently" caused a bit of pain to remind them cheating is the lowest of the low in a competition that is supposed to be a game.) If you can't play to the rules, you're not playing the same game.
Maybe it's just a British thing?
No, you're right - it's a sporting thing. Although as British we're particularly fastidious about the rules..Overly aggressive, fine. Accidental contact, fine. Getting it wrong, fine. Deliberately using dirty and dangerous driving to hold a position he would've fairly lost, aka cheating, is proof that his mindset was seriously wrong for a racing driver.
I can't stand cheats in anything. Never have. Never will. ("Accidently" caused a bit of pain to remind them cheating is the lowest of the low in a competition that is supposed to be a game.) If you can't play to the rules, you're not playing the same game.
Maybe it's just a British thing?
Of course you're right though. The sport exists to find a champion. If you cheat and play by separate rules, winning is meaningless. Other than commercially - and sadly in the end the talent Schumacher had was commercialised and as a product, he was almost not allowed to lose. Easy enough to understand and it's not an outright slight of his character. However, the fact remains that Lewis has achieved the same (nearly) without such foul play.
TheDeuce said:
mattikake said:
Imo one instance of deliberately dirty/cheat driving is more than enough for me thanks. Especially given he'd done the same twice before already - both in an attempt to avoid losing.
Overly aggressive, fine. Accidental contact, fine. Getting it wrong, fine. Deliberately using dirty and dangerous driving to hold a position he would've fairly lost, aka cheating, is proof that his mindset was seriously wrong for a racing driver.
I can't stand cheats in anything. Never have. Never will. ("Accidently" caused a bit of pain to remind them cheating is the lowest of the low in a competition that is supposed to be a game.) If you can't play to the rules, you're not playing the same game.
Maybe it's just a British thing?
No, you're right - it's a sporting thing. Although as British we're particularly fastidious about the rules..Overly aggressive, fine. Accidental contact, fine. Getting it wrong, fine. Deliberately using dirty and dangerous driving to hold a position he would've fairly lost, aka cheating, is proof that his mindset was seriously wrong for a racing driver.
I can't stand cheats in anything. Never have. Never will. ("Accidently" caused a bit of pain to remind them cheating is the lowest of the low in a competition that is supposed to be a game.) If you can't play to the rules, you're not playing the same game.
Maybe it's just a British thing?
Of course you're right though. The sport exists to find a champion. If you cheat and play by separate rules, winning is meaningless. Other than commercially - and sadly in the end the talent Schumacher had was commercialised and as a product, he was almost not allowed to lose. Easy enough to understand and it's not an outright slight of his character. However, the fact remains that Lewis has achieved the same (nearly) without such foul play.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff