Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?
Discussion
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
Alonso knows that Lewis is a legend in the making; saying he's at least equal to MS when he hasn't even retired yet.
But; there's a few armchair experts on PH who know better!
Well 7 is more than 6.But; there's a few armchair experts on PH who know better!
Lewis should cruise upto Schumacher's record in the amazing Mercedes next year.
2: as for cruising up on the record. Hope so! It’ll be a mighty feat against more / better drivers and with less cheating than ol’ Mike ever managed to muster
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
Alonso knows that Lewis is a legend in the making; saying he's at least equal to MS when he hasn't even retired yet.
But; there's a few armchair experts on PH who know better!
Well 7 is more than 6.But; there's a few armchair experts on PH who know better!
Lewis should cruise upto Schumacher's record in the amazing Mercedes next year.
2: as for cruising up on the record. Hope so! It’ll be a mighty feat against more / better drivers and with less cheating than ol’ Mike ever managed to muster
Graveworm said:
kiseca said:
Damon has described himself as "not the best overtaker". He knows he screwed it up. He saw a gap and went for it, was at Michael's mercy and someone with more experience (Damon didn't start racing cars until relatively late in his life) may have evaluated the situation differently, even without knowing Michael had hit the wall just before.
Damon had a couple of similar collisions with Michael in 1995 as well, where he came from miles back and they both ended up out of the race. At Silverstone and Monza, if I recall.
Doesn't mean Michael didn't purposefully drive into him to secure his world championship though. As much as I think most drivers on the grid, in Damon's position, wouldn't have gone for that gap, I also think most drivers in Schumacher's position - at least the drivers back then in 1994 - wouldn't have turned in on Damon. Nowadays, I think things have changed enough that Damon would have had no chance of getting past any current driver with that move, but that is how the sport evolves I guess. Someone pushes the boundaries, they get away with it, it becomes the norm. And Schumacher wasn't the one who pushed this boundary. it was, ironically, possibly the cleanest driver of the 1980s... Prost.
EDITED - got my years wrong. The other collisions were in 1995, not 1996 - where for the first part of the year Schumacher was having an unusually good day if his Ferrari lasted all the way to the starting grid.
They recently showed Hill and Herbert (Who went on to win) watching the '95 Silverstone GP and giving their thoughts. They were pretty clear that Schumacher was done when he strangely slowed, very early, unlike any other lap out wide, leaving loads of room on the inside then swept across when Hill went for the open door. Is it cheating or using the rules in a way they were never intended? Damon had a couple of similar collisions with Michael in 1995 as well, where he came from miles back and they both ended up out of the race. At Silverstone and Monza, if I recall.
Doesn't mean Michael didn't purposefully drive into him to secure his world championship though. As much as I think most drivers on the grid, in Damon's position, wouldn't have gone for that gap, I also think most drivers in Schumacher's position - at least the drivers back then in 1994 - wouldn't have turned in on Damon. Nowadays, I think things have changed enough that Damon would have had no chance of getting past any current driver with that move, but that is how the sport evolves I guess. Someone pushes the boundaries, they get away with it, it becomes the norm. And Schumacher wasn't the one who pushed this boundary. it was, ironically, possibly the cleanest driver of the 1980s... Prost.
EDITED - got my years wrong. The other collisions were in 1995, not 1996 - where for the first part of the year Schumacher was having an unusually good day if his Ferrari lasted all the way to the starting grid.
At Adelaide, he stood behind the barriers and watched the TV, looking anxious until it was clear that Hill had retired, and then he was elated once it was clear he had the championship. There, he didn't look like a man who'd been cheated out of the opportunity by an overzealous opponent, he looked like a man who had one last chance, took it, and it worked.
And still, whatever Schumacher did at Silverstone and Monza, Hill himself has said he wasn't the best overtaker and he would jump into gaps that were never going to work. He had a weakness, as all drivers do, and Schumacher both exploited it and IMO was a victim of it.
kiseca said:
Yes and Hill said the same thing about the Monza accident as well, Schumacher was going slower than he expected. But Schumacher's reaction in both crashes was different to his reaction at Adelaide. In both cases he showed anger at Hill.
That's another thing that shows Schumacher's mindset was simply wrong.He'd deliberately crash into other drivers to win (and wouldn't apologise or admit it) but when someone accidently did it to him he was furious.
Mod edit. Please don't bypass the swear filter.
Edited by Scrump on Thursday 5th December 15:02
mattikake said:
kiseca said:
Yes and Hill said the same thing about the Monza accident as well, Schumacher was going slower than he expected. But Schumacher's reaction in both crashes was different to his reaction at Adelaide. In both cases he showed anger at Hill.
That's another thing that shows Schumacher's mindset was simply wrong.He'd deliberately crash into other drivers to win (and wouldn't apologise or admit it) but when someone accidently did it to him he was furious.
vdn said:
1: number of championships doesn’t mean equal in this context; otherwise Senna would be considered only half as good as Lewis and Mike.
Ofcourse, there is a difference between great results and true greatness.Greatness comes from triumph over adversity and disaster.
In the small bubble that is F1, Fangio remains the greatest. Extreme adversity with broken body and yet still reigned supreme.
Others who have bounced back after F1 adversity would include Lauda, Hakkinen, Schumacher, Graham Hill, Mansell, Zanardi, Kubica.
It's never just about the numbers
Edited by sparta6 on Wednesday 4th December 12:09
sparta6 said:
Ofcourse, there is a difference between great results and true greatness.
Greatness comes from triumph over adversity and disaster.
In the small bubble that is F1, Fangio remains the greatest. Extreme adversity with broken body and yet still reigned supreme.
Others who have bounced back after F1 adversity would include Lauda, Hakkinen, Schumacher, Graham Hill, Mansell, Zanardi, Kubica.
It's never just about the numbers
then there's Moss, who never won the championship, didn't bounce back from his big accident (not in F1 at least) and is still great.Greatness comes from triumph over adversity and disaster.
In the small bubble that is F1, Fangio remains the greatest. Extreme adversity with broken body and yet still reigned supreme.
Others who have bounced back after F1 adversity would include Lauda, Hakkinen, Schumacher, Graham Hill, Mansell, Zanardi, Kubica.
It's never just about the numbers
Edited by sparta6 on Wednesday 4th December 12:09
Or maybe Andretti, a versatile driver who won across multiple disciplines, something that was common in the '60s but by the time he was in F1 in the late '70s drivers had already become much more specialised. He may be the last truly successful, versatile driver to date?
Mansell. One championship, certainly a fighter who overcame adversity. Beaten by Piquet and beaten by Prost. Not rated by his boss at Lotus - Peter Weir specifically, if I recall. Known to have a moan. Still one of the biggest characters in F1 from the 1980s, I think mostly because of his battling spirit and heart of a lion.
Gilles Villeneuve. Often thought of as one of the greatest. Never won a championship. Never had a chance to come back from adversity. I believe was struggling to match Pironi's pace in 1982, but a spectacular driver who always gave his all and never gave up.
Mr Tidy said:
Indeed - I can't wait for Lewis to get his 7th title, and then hopefully his 8th.
Just to prove it can be done without putting people into the nearest obstacle!
Whereas MS didn't seem to have any issues with that.
Hamilton has his fair share of dirty tricks as well, go ask Rosberg. On track, but mostly off it. On track for example I can remember Ham driving Rosberg off the track in turn 1 in Austin GP just after race start. The difference between MS and Ham is shown in their personalites and the scrutiny they were under. Ham is a bit disingenious, a bit of an actor, MS was more blunt in his demeanor, more direct. Ham's behaviour on track was heavily scrutinized by Toto and his crew as well, his one and only rival for the title drove and to this day drives in a Mercedes after all. Another difference is the outside world and scrutiny of race control. F1 has changed over the years, more regulated, more emphasis on safety. The antics and atmosphere in F1 during the years of Prost and Senna were different than they are now. Just to prove it can be done without putting people into the nearest obstacle!
Whereas MS didn't seem to have any issues with that.
Hamilton has the luxury to drive an unprecedentedly dominant car in the history of F1. Even to this day the Mercedes, especially in free air, is still the best car by far. Bahrein proved it again. Telling is when looking at the full F1 season that Bottas, who's a fairly average driver compared with Verstappen, Leclerc, Vettel and Hamilton, managed to become 2nd in the WDC without ever being under threat of the other teams.
Telling as well, the only WDC contenders these past 6 years were the Mercedes drivers. I wonder how many races these past 6 years Mercedes were sandbagging.
Ham's WDC's are worth less than MS's WDC's, the achievement, the pressure, the rivalry, it just isn't the same.
DeltonaS said:
Mr Tidy said:
Indeed - I can't wait for Lewis to get his 7th title, and then hopefully his 8th.
Just to prove it can be done without putting people into the nearest obstacle!
Whereas MS didn't seem to have any issues with that.
Hamilton has his fair share of dirty tricks as well, go ask Rosberg. On track, but mostly off it. On track for example I can remember Ham driving Rosberg off the track in turn 1 in Austin GP just after race start. The difference between MS and Ham is shown in their personalites and the scrutiny they were under. Ham is a bit disingenious, a bit of an actor, MS was more blunt in his demeanor, more direct. Ham's behaviour on track was heavily scrutinized by Toto and his crew as well, his one and only rival for the title drove and to this day drives in a Mercedes after all. Another difference is the outside world and scrutiny of race control. F1 has changed over the years, more regulated, more emphasis on safety. The antics and atmosphere in F1 during the years of Prost and Senna were different than they are now. Just to prove it can be done without putting people into the nearest obstacle!
Whereas MS didn't seem to have any issues with that.
Hamilton has the luxury to drive an unprecedentedly dominant car in the history of F1. Even to this day the Mercedes, especially in free air, is still the best car by far. Bahrein proved it again. Telling is when looking at the full F1 season that Bottas, who's a fairly average driver compared with Verstappen, Leclerc, Vettel and Hamilton, managed to become 2nd in the WDC without ever being under threat of the other teams.
Telling as well, the only WDC contenders these past 6 years were the Mercedes drivers. I wonder how many races these past 6 years Mercedes were sandbagging.
Ham's WDC's are worth less than MS's WDC's, the achievement, the pressure, the rivalry, it just isn't the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB2-a4ffZo8
Having the best car doesn't guarantee a win or a WDC. Look at Gasly in the RedBull, couldn't produce the goods. Albon is exploiting the same car in a much better way. Ferrari have had a strong car over the past 2 seasons but between the team and drivers they've managed to drop the ball, fall off the track and trip over themselves. Your beloved seemed to do ok in Brazil against the Mercs
. Having access to the best equipment is no doubt an advantage but Lewis still has to be able to work with the team, the engineers and get the best out of his car and himself. He's done that without no'1 status in the team, team mates being asked to move over from early in the season or running rivals properly off the road. Remember what he did to Massa? He just couldn't help himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AzpYilkKrA
Of course we know if Max was in the Merc you'd have no issue with that at all
DeltonaS said:
Hamilton has his fair share of dirty tricks as well, go ask Rosberg. On track, but mostly off it.
I'm not aware of any. Please enlighten us.DeltonaS said:
On track for example I can remember Ham driving Rosberg off the track in turn 1 in Austin GP just after race start.
That was a completely fair hangout maneuver in attack. Don't remember the stewards or pundits having an issue with that. Rosberg tried similar in Austria in defense and got it completely wrong.sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
Of course we know if Max was in the Merc you'd have no issue with that at all
If Max was in the Mercedes he would not finish second in the WDC Paul671 said:
sparta6 said:
If Max was in the Mercedes he would not finish second in the WDC
So 3rd then??
As poster said above, nobody actually knows, but so far Max has shown mercurial speed but not an ability to consistently rack up points. Albon was outscoring him for much of their season together in Red Bull, for instance, and Ricciardo's better consistency gave him an edge over Max too.At the moment, Max looks fast and threatening, but given his potential, he's underachieving.
kiseca said:
Paul671 said:
sparta6 said:
If Max was in the Mercedes he would not finish second in the WDC
So 3rd then?? As poster said above, nobody actually knows, but so far Max has shown mercurial speed but not an ability to consistently rack up points. Albon was outscoring him for much of their season together in Red Bull, for instance, and Ricciardo's better consistency gave him an edge over Max too.At the moment, Max looks fast and threatening, but given his potential, he's underachieving.
Yes, Max has enormous talent, but as I pointed out earlier this season, his career has already had more GP's than Jackie Stewart’s, so he is by no means a newbie anymore.
It’s interesting to speculate as to what a Lewis/Max partnership might provide. Great entertainment, certainly, but I have a feeling Max would implode and Lewis would win handily over a season laden with WDC pressure.
It’s interesting to speculate as to what a Lewis/Max partnership might provide. Great entertainment, certainly, but I have a feeling Max would implode and Lewis would win handily over a season laden with WDC pressure.
Max was third in WDC only because the two red drivers have been tripping over each other and the pit wall have made some very dodgy calls.
He’s fast but not consistent enough yet.
Sure consistency will come.
There’s a lot of other young talent out there so difficult to know who will take Hamilton’s crown when he inevitably hangs up his gloves.
It’s an exciting prospect.
He’s fast but not consistent enough yet.
Sure consistency will come.
There’s a lot of other young talent out there so difficult to know who will take Hamilton’s crown when he inevitably hangs up his gloves.
It’s an exciting prospect.
I'd love to see that. Max vs Lewis in the same team. My prediction would be a bit like Lauda vs Prost. Season 1, Max will shock Lewis with his pace. But Lewis knows how to win championships, will win races, get points, and prevail. Max doesn't know how to win championships, will give Lewis opportunities which will be taken ruthlessly, and will get spooked and drop the ball in races where Lewis is outpacing him and either putting pressure on him or pulling away.
In season 2 or maybe 3, Lewis, will tire of having to put so much extra effort in to achieving the success he has got used to because Max is so hard to beat in a straight fight, and Lewis has already done it all and has nothing to prove to himself. He'll stop caring about winning when he starts seeing he is no longer invincible and that won't ever get better.
Max on the other hand will be hungrier than ever, and now having had an opportunity to win the championship and failed, will start to figure out how he lost it and how Lewis beat him, and get stronger. And then win.
Fast forward 12 years and multiple champion Max is putting all his experience to bear to win one last championship against some disrespectful kid who right now is 9 years old and playing Roblox.
Or Le Clerc or Russell get in a quick enough car and spoil Max's party.
In season 2 or maybe 3, Lewis, will tire of having to put so much extra effort in to achieving the success he has got used to because Max is so hard to beat in a straight fight, and Lewis has already done it all and has nothing to prove to himself. He'll stop caring about winning when he starts seeing he is no longer invincible and that won't ever get better.
Max on the other hand will be hungrier than ever, and now having had an opportunity to win the championship and failed, will start to figure out how he lost it and how Lewis beat him, and get stronger. And then win.
Fast forward 12 years and multiple champion Max is putting all his experience to bear to win one last championship against some disrespectful kid who right now is 9 years old and playing Roblox.
Or Le Clerc or Russell get in a quick enough car and spoil Max's party.
Edited by kiseca on Thursday 5th December 19:14
Exige77 said:
Max was third in WDC only because the two red drivers have been tripping over each other and the pit wall have made some very dodgy calls.
He’s fast but not consistent enough yet.
Sure consistency will come.
There’s a lot of other young talent out there so difficult to know who will take Hamilton’s crown when he inevitably hangs up his gloves.
It’s an exciting prospect.
Really, it is not like he's been in F1 and been a racing driver for long, one would assume that by now he would be consistent! He’s fast but not consistent enough yet.
Sure consistency will come.
There’s a lot of other young talent out there so difficult to know who will take Hamilton’s crown when he inevitably hangs up his gloves.
It’s an exciting prospect.
For how long can he be given an excuse!
Edited by HTP99 on Thursday 5th December 20:21
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