Renault Brakegate
Discussion
StevieBee said:
Kraken said:
sgtBerbatov said:
The thing is, the rules say (apparently) that the driver has to drive the car alone and unaided. But the car has power steering, they can change engine maps for performance boosts, anti stall procedures, etc. They're all aiding the driver, so having something control brake bias is also an aid, but so are the others mentioned. To me anyway.
Difference is that the power steering doesn't do anything without the driver, engine maps are selected by the driver etc. The car automatically adjusting the brake bias to compensate for fuel usage/tyre deg is nothing to do with the driver.One could argue that part of the skill of a driver should be to sense differing demands placed upon the mechanical operation of the car at any point during the course of the race - including braking - and adjust accordingly. Anything that removes the opportunity for that skill to be exercised is a direct aid to the driver.
My first thought is why have they done this? - if in fact they have done.
It would seem a huge risk to take for a car they probably already suspected wouldn't be as competitive as hoped this season. On the other hand, the benefits of the braking aid clearly aren't huge as they're not exactly enjoying new levels of success this season. Seems like it would be a big risk to take for minimal reward.
The risk to the driver's reputation is also significant surely? I don't see how they could claim not to notice such a system...
It would seem a huge risk to take for a car they probably already suspected wouldn't be as competitive as hoped this season. On the other hand, the benefits of the braking aid clearly aren't huge as they're not exactly enjoying new levels of success this season. Seems like it would be a big risk to take for minimal reward.
The risk to the driver's reputation is also significant surely? I don't see how they could claim not to notice such a system...
TheDeuce said:
My first thought is why have they done this? - if in fact they have done.
It would seem a huge risk to take for a car they probably already suspected wouldn't be as competitive as hoped this season. On the other hand, the benefits of the braking aid clearly aren't huge as they're not exactly enjoying new levels of success this season. Seems like it would be a big risk to take for minimal reward.
The risk to the driver's reputation is also significant surely? I don't see how they could claim not to notice such a system...
Drivers will get likely get immunity from the FIA if they co-operate.It would seem a huge risk to take for a car they probably already suspected wouldn't be as competitive as hoped this season. On the other hand, the benefits of the braking aid clearly aren't huge as they're not exactly enjoying new levels of success this season. Seems like it would be a big risk to take for minimal reward.
The risk to the driver's reputation is also significant surely? I don't see how they could claim not to notice such a system...
Derek Smith said:
On the other hand, good news for McLaren.
Selfish point of view, I know, but we McLaren fans (that's me and Kevin) haven't had much to cheer about over recent years.
My first thought is it may have something to do with the Bahraini Team as that’s who they are in direct competition with, who they’ve just been dumped by and who incidentally builds the control ECU that has to control this.Selfish point of view, I know, but we McLaren fans (that's me and Kevin) haven't had much to cheer about over recent years.
TheDeuce said:
vaud said:
Drivers will get likely get immunity from the FIA if they co-operate.
But would still be known to have 'cheated' is my point. Even if no official sanction against them.Even if they are immune from the FIA, their reputation could be effected. Hulkenberg may care less, however difficult to think that Ricciardo would be type to knowingly cheat ........ unless he was legitimately led to believe that the systems that he was being trained in were legal.
Alonso never really shook off suggestions of being complicit and aware of Piquet's deliberate crash that helped give him a title, for example ..... for the record, I don't believe Alonso knew of the teams action in this case.
mat205125 said:
TheDeuce said:
vaud said:
Drivers will get likely get immunity from the FIA if they co-operate.
But would still be known to have 'cheated' is my point. Even if no official sanction against them.Even if they are immune from the FIA, their reputation could be effected. Hulkenberg may care less, however difficult to think that Ricciardo would be type to knowingly cheat ........ unless he was legitimately led to believe that the systems that he was being trained in were legal.
Alonso never really shook off suggestions of being complicit and aware of Piquet's deliberate crash that helped give him a title, for example ..... for the record, I don't believe Alonso knew of the teams action in this case.
However what is odd is you can clearly see; via the onboard camera, drivers adjusting the brake bias on their steering wheel, surely any onboard for the Renault would show the drivers not doing this?
Europa1 said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
My first thought is it may have something to do with the Bahraini Team as that’s who they are in direct competition with, who they’ve just been dumped by and who incidentally builds the control ECU that has to control this.
Why call them that?This is going to be one of those stories where I don't think we'll hear a word more about it until the FIA are ready to make a determination. So much liability at stake.
I don't believe in 'no smoke without fire'. However in this instance, I'm thinking it's not an accusation they would make unless they were pretty certain something was amiss.
If it's true, I think it'd pretty much be the last straw for Renault's state backed F1 journey. Hard to explain to the French taxpayer that the teams struggling inspite of cheating.. especially if they're still getting beaten by a British customer team.
I don't believe in 'no smoke without fire'. However in this instance, I'm thinking it's not an accusation they would make unless they were pretty certain something was amiss.
If it's true, I think it'd pretty much be the last straw for Renault's state backed F1 journey. Hard to explain to the French taxpayer that the teams struggling inspite of cheating.. especially if they're still getting beaten by a British customer team.
If wanted to implement a system such as this and protect the driver, I’d do it and not actually tell them and let them think they are still changing the bias themselves. If the computer can do it more quickly and the driver “adjusts it” there or thereabouts, then the onboard will still show driver interaction more or less on the same place. Just my 10p
It's not the drivers' jobs to make sure the car is legal. They don't know the technical regs inside and out. Given that the brakes apparently fall foul of the "drive the car alone and unaided" rule, rather than anything specific about brake bias settings, I would have thought both drivers knew that brake bias was changed on the fly, and didn't think anything more of it.
biggrim said:
If wanted to implement a system such as this and protect the driver, I’d do it and not actually tell them and let them think they are still changing the bias themselves. If the computer can do it more quickly and the driver “adjusts it” there or thereabouts, then the onboard will still show driver interaction more or less on the same place. Just my 10p
I thought they were still making adjustments at different points as well? HardtopManual said:
It's not the drivers' jobs to make sure the car is legal. They don't know the technical regs inside and out. Given that the brakes apparently fall foul of the "drive the car alone and unaided" rule, rather than anything specific about brake bias settings, I would have thought both drivers knew that brake bias was changed on the fly, and didn't think anything more of it.
It wouldn't be the drivers doing/fault. But surely they would know even if they weren't told? It's part of their skill set to adjust brake bias and experiment with those adjustments to get the fastest lap time. If they're making different adjustments as they experiment, but the braking always feels the same, would they not notice? Given how sensitive an F1 driver must be I would have thought they would notice pretty quickly that their inputs weren't making any difference.Or... maybe the pre-set system is overridden by driver input? In which case it's only a matter of time before they miss a manual adjustment yet the car behaves as they wished in any case. They should also notice that.
My point being, if a driver is capable and required to adjust brake bias manually, then it follows that one way or another they must eventually notice if such adjustments are being made automatically. It's typical for F1 drivers to notice and report even the slightest unexpected behaviour from their car.
deadslow said:
well they do have a bit of previous. The year the McLaren turned out to be a Ferrari, the Renault was actually a McLaren.
The only evidence found about McL, rather ironically, was the brakes, although McL could prove provenence. The brakes on the Renault at that time were not mentioned. Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff