Ferrari: Enginegate

Ferrari: Enginegate

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Discussion

Deesee

3,140 posts

30 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
From our Italian friends, Q 3 data..

https://f1ingenerale.com/f1-power-unit-ferrari-e-d...



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TheDeuce

3,460 posts

13 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
From our Italian friends, Q 3 data..

https://f1ingenerale.com/f1-power-unit-ferrari-e-d...



&

That doesn't illustrate the supposed power gain and power loss that everyone is convinced of..

Deesee

3,140 posts

30 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
From our Italian friends, Q 3 data..

https://f1ingenerale.com/f1-power-unit-ferrari-e-d...



&

That doesn't illustrate the supposed power gain and power loss that everyone is convinced of..
Correct, I said in the race thread, no difference on the GPS.

Interesting the yellow line, the way the KPH delta spikes hard in the initial output, and also interesting the decrease in acceleration at the end of the straight, they may well have found a way to deploy & harvest at the end of the straight.

Also striking is how evenly matched (In Acceleration & top speed) the red Bull & Merc are, therefore have red bull actually really underperformed this season?

jsf

14,403 posts

183 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
I assume such components are made, like most F1 components, only to be as strong as they need to be. If so, do you think it's possible that Ferrari were running higher down force than usual in order to stop their car skipping over the bumps and losing the rear (as in FP) and that this added force, combined with a couple of decent kerb knocks, was enough to cause the failure?

Increased downforce could also be the reason, or at least part of the reason.. for their reduced speed in quali and race. And to me, the car looked far less skittish on the track quali onwards.


Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 5th November 17:33
No, downforce levels wont impact on the load rate into the roll control systems.

I suspect all the teams raised their ride heights significantly to cope with the bumps, i also suspect they would have softened the basic wheel rates, so would have seen unusual suspension travel with the load path outside the norms.

miniman

20,059 posts

209 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
Nickp82 said:
I was just reading about Mattio Binotta’s supposed heated words with Christian Horner after this weekends race and subsequent ‘voicing of opinions’.

I thought this picture was excellent, would love to know what Binotta is saying smile

It would be a Twinkie thirty-five feet long weighing approximately six hundred pounds.



TheDeuce

3,460 posts

13 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
miniman said:
Nickp82 said:
I was just reading about Mattio Binotta’s supposed heated words with Christian Horner after this weekends race and subsequent ‘voicing of opinions’.

I thought this picture was excellent, would love to know what Binotta is saying smile

It would be a Twinkie thirty-five feet long weighing approximately six hundred pounds.


rofl

TheDeuce

3,460 posts

13 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
From our Italian friends, Q 3 data..

https://f1ingenerale.com/f1-power-unit-ferrari-e-d...



&

That doesn't illustrate the supposed power gain and power loss that everyone is convinced of..
Correct, I said in the race thread, no difference on the GPS.

Interesting the yellow line, the way the KPH delta spikes hard in the initial output, and also interesting the decrease in acceleration at the end of the straight, they may well have found a way to deploy & harvest at the end of the straight.

Also striking is how evenly matched (In Acceleration & top speed) the red Bull & Merc are, therefore have red bull actually really underperformed this season?
I think Gasly under-performed which did most of the damage - and once that put them out of hopes of contention for WCC 2nd they focused on development, specifically giving Honda as much data as possible. I think people must be bored of this stat by now, but Max did out-perform both Ferrari drivers for the first half of the season. I'd say with a different set of priorities and two very good drivers (Albon is doing great now imo) they could have been a real threat to Ferrari this season. Bring on next season then!!

As for the small but important gap that leaves to Merc performance from either RB or Ferrari, I don't think that's down to anything we can identify in isolation, it's more that Merc are just a fantastically tuned and efficient team, they get it right more often than the others, and even when they get it slightly wrong they don't tend to lose out as much as the others.

Thanks for posting the GPS. It won't please the conspiracy theorists on here - although as it's factual they'll probably just ignore it wink

Megaflow

6,806 posts

172 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
miniman said:
Nickp82 said:
I was just reading about Mattio Binotta’s supposed heated words with Christian Horner after this weekends race and subsequent ‘voicing of opinions’.

I thought this picture was excellent, would love to know what Binotta is saying smile

It would be a Twinkie thirty-five feet long weighing approximately six hundred pounds.


Very good. I always thought there was something familiar about him, but I assumed because of the round glasses I was making a Harry Potter connection. Turns out not.

RemarkLima

681 posts

159 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
RemarkLima said:
So he's trying to suggest that F1 mechanics were sat in the garage with an ARB and a pile of bolts wondering where they had came from?

Do F1 cars even have ARB's? Given they're so stiff, I'd have thought they'd not need them? And I can only see the two wishbones, a suspension rod and a steering arm but can't say I've looked for a roll bar...

I'm getting the impression he's trying to be "a social influencer"?
No idea on the build of the car! I’m pretty sure he does.

He was involved on the test team at McLaren in the naughties, he’s got quite the resume in terms of drivers worked with.

He earns his money as a speaker now, social media is a good way of plugging his speaking as such, I’m pretty sure he was involved with Sky f1 (not sure if still is).

I’ve got a few old football friends on the speaking circuit, there’s a pretty penny in it.
Ah, I take it back - too many random folk out there just talking to the camera with no actual expert knowledge. The basis that celebrity trumps expertise!

Good luck if he does know his stuff smile

Teddy Lop

1,874 posts

14 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
wibble cb said:
So is this dieselgate in F1 ? The Redbull question seems to suggest that someone is gaming the sensor to interfere with the flow/sensor when its not being asked to prove the fuel flow, i.e. it passes the flow test when asked, a al VW diesel engines?
I heard something about gaming the sensor too but can't find more than that.

How would you game it, how does the sensor work? Does it sample x times/sec, if you know the sample rate and timing could you use a precisely timed high pressure injector to force more fuel through when its off cycle?

TheDeuce

3,460 posts

13 months

Wednesday 6th November
quotequote all
Teddy Lop said:
wibble cb said:
So is this dieselgate in F1 ? The Redbull question seems to suggest that someone is gaming the sensor to interfere with the flow/sensor when its not being asked to prove the fuel flow, i.e. it passes the flow test when asked, a al VW diesel engines?
I heard something about gaming the sensor too but can't find more than that.

How would you game it, how does the sensor work? Does it sample x times/sec, if you know the sample rate and timing could you use a precisely timed high pressure injector to force more fuel through when its off cycle?
I'm still far from convinced there was anything at play here.. However, it would be fairly simple to draw more fuel by voltage spiking a correctly prepared injection system. If you could detect the signal cycle of the sensor, the voltage spike could be timed in between. Essentially using the sensor signal as a trigger to spike the voltage and introduce a little more fuel in between each cycle. That would be very safe (from the point of view of being a massive cheat) as the extra fuel could never flow at a time it was being monitored. Not synchronised with the sensors cycle, but triggered by it - hence the 'cheat' can only occur once the sensor has proven to have taken an 'honest' reading. The injection system could be designed to respond to the mildly varying voltage in a way that lets a little more fuel through.

I see so many reasons not to do that sort of thing though... For one, the fuel flow would be varying which to make the best use of would require consideration in the PU design and also the mapping. If the most isn't made of that extra fuel, you're just wasting the extra fuel - but if the most is to be made of the extra, how can the engine also be working at peak efficiency on the strokes where the fuel flow is limited? Solvable for sure, but it adds another level of complexity to cheating for what would be in reality a small advantage. Then you have to question if Ferrari could really risk being found out having developed such a complex cheat system, that once unravelled would be found to have required a great degree of pre-meditation in the design stage to make effective - talk about shameful! And it really would be shameful - it's not like the double diffuser or the fan car, those were fair play on the grounds that other teams could have thought of the same work-around but didn't. The fact that RB have postulated the solution proves that other teams can imagine/consider such a work-around but would never use it - because it would be totally underhanded cheating.

It will never be OK to cheat a sensor specifically employed to stop cheating, and then expect it to ever be allowable. Even if you're Ferrari. The FIA have to draw a line somewhere and if they've already put a sensor in place and defined a flow rate, then anything that subverts that has to be a hard line in the sand. I just can't believe Ferrari would be stupid enough to put a famously supportive FIA in a situation where they will be forced to come down heavy. Ferrari may be devious, but they're not complete idiots.

Last but not least, the fuel limits are now firmly established in F1. Cheating those limits is the equivalent of taking a short cut each lap and expecting to get away with it. And, if found out to have cheated fuel flow, all they would have proven is that they can only better Mercedes by effectively competing in a different race under different conditions. There is no kudos to be earned from an unfair fight, certainly not if there is a risk of it being proven just how unfair it was.

NewUsername

294 posts

3 months

Wednesday 6th November
quotequote all
I still doubt its a fuel flow based 'cheat'

If it was based around delivering more fuel to the injectors that the max fuel flow through the sensor could supply then surely it would be pretty easy to get McLaren technicians (makers of the standard ECU) to investigate the maps and see what the the injectors 'instructions' are......

Derek Smith

34,773 posts

195 months

Wednesday 6th November
quotequote all
I'm certain Ferrari would not stoop to cheating. I remember, some years ago, I was going to discuss a similar matter in the Ferrari motor home. Unfortunately, the floor was a bit wobbly and I felt seasick. But I certain they'd have explained the ethos of being fair in everything.


37chevy

3,211 posts

103 months

Wednesday 6th November
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
I'm certain Ferrari would not stoop to cheating. I remember, some years ago, I was going to discuss a similar matter in the Ferrari motor home. Unfortunately, the floor was a bit wobbly and I felt seasick. But I certain they'd have explained the ethos of being fair in everything.
Did you have to ‘barge’ your way past security?

PTF

3,486 posts

171 months

Wednesday 6th November
quotequote all
miniman said:
Nickp82 said:
I was just reading about Mattio Binotta’s supposed heated words with Christian Horner after this weekends race and subsequent ‘voicing of opinions’.

I thought this picture was excellent, would love to know what Binotta is saying smile

It would be a Twinkie thirty-five feet long weighing approximately six hundred pounds.


rofl

Derek Smith

34,773 posts

195 months

Wednesday 6th November
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Derek Smith said:
I'm certain Ferrari would not stoop to cheating. I remember, some years ago, I was going to discuss a similar matter in the Ferrari motor home. Unfortunately, the floor was a bit wobbly and I felt seasick. But I certain they'd have explained the ethos of being fair in everything.
Did you have to ‘barge’ your way past security?
This could go on forever.


RemarkLima

681 posts

159 months

Wednesday 6th November
quotequote all
Sorry if I missed this, but I can't seem to find the actual questions Red Bull asked the FIA.

I've seen the FIA response, but are the actual questions secret? Or just not news worthy? Or are my Google fu skills lacking?

kambites

57,491 posts

168 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
Sorry if I missed this, but I can't seem to find the actual questions Red Bull asked the FIA.

I've seen the FIA response, but are the actual questions secret? Or just not news worthy? Or are my Google fu skills lacking?
I believe it was basically as follows.

The fuel flow meter samples the instantaneous fuel flow at regular (presumably quite short) invtervals, would it be legal to exceed the fuel flow limit in carefully timed pulses between each measurement by the sensor?

RemarkLima

681 posts

159 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
kambites said:
RemarkLima said:
Sorry if I missed this, but I can't seem to find the actual questions Red Bull asked the FIA.

I've seen the FIA response, but are the actual questions secret? Or just not news worthy? Or are my Google fu skills lacking?
I believe it was basically as follows.

The fuel flow meter samples the instantaneous fuel flow at regular (presumably quite short) invtervals, would it be legal to exceed the fuel flow limit in carefully timed pulses between each measurement by the sensor?
I read there were three suggestions from Red Bull, all resulting in the same clarification... Which is why I'm curious as to the other options, unless they all involve storing fuel past the flow sensor, or increasing flow between measurements?

Deesee

3,140 posts

30 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
kambites said:
RemarkLima said:
Sorry if I missed this, but I can't seem to find the actual questions Red Bull asked the FIA.

I've seen the FIA response, but are the actual questions secret? Or just not news worthy? Or are my Google fu skills lacking?
I believe it was basically as follows.

The fuel flow meter samples the instantaneous fuel flow at regular (presumably quite short) invtervals, would it be legal to exceed the fuel flow limit in carefully timed pulses between each measurement by the sensor?
I read there were three suggestions from Red Bull, all resulting in the same clarification... Which is why I'm curious as to the other options, unless they all involve storing fuel past the flow sensor, or increasing flow between measurements?
This pretty much covers it (as well as the Ferrari query on the Merc at the weekend too).

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.tech-tu...