What would the 0-60 etc be of an F1 car?
Discussion
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Group B was pretty crazy back in the '80s.
A few stories in the past about it being as fast as the F1 car which you can read here below.
I read in a few different articles that the Audi S1 Evo 2 was producing 600 BHP at the 1000 Lakes event in Finland back in 1985.
They state 0-60 in 2 seconds.
If this is true that is pretty crazy when you consider a Ferrari Testarossa of the same year had 390 BHP.
https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/henri-toivonen-at-es...
The link's not complete, but if it's the now famous Estoril story where the Group B cars were putting in similar times on the special stage as the F1 cars, then it's a famous misunderstanding: the tracks were different.A few stories in the past about it being as fast as the F1 car which you can read here below.
I read in a few different articles that the Audi S1 Evo 2 was producing 600 BHP at the 1000 Lakes event in Finland back in 1985.
They state 0-60 in 2 seconds.
If this is true that is pretty crazy when you consider a Ferrari Testarossa of the same year had 390 BHP.
https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/henri-toivonen-at-es...
RobM77 said:
kiseca said:
Parsnip said:
Driving a car with 720bhp into a corner and then having it suddenly gain another 440bhp on corner exit must be more than a little odd.
The Nurburgring lap is something else to watch - merrily bombing along at 320kph, big boost from the hybrid and its instantly at 360kph.
Would love to see them do a F1 "evo", but as alluded to with the Newey Gran Turismo car - highly unlikely that anyone would be able to drive it without their head flying off or them passing out.
As an aside - anyone who has ever been on the "Rita Queen of Speed" ride at Alton Towers knows roughly what the acceleration we are talking about here feels like - horrendous - I would be unable to remember my own name and would be genuinely terrified if my right foot was in charge of that. I would definitely not be able to do it while avoiding other cars, playing with steering wheel settings and speaking to the pit wall on the radio...
I would guess it's like any speed. Your mind speeds up to compensate. I don't know how - perhaps by reducing focus on other things. If you're driving along at motorway speeds for an hour or two and then slow down to town speeds, it feels like you're really crawling because you've got used to your environment changing much more quickly.The Nurburgring lap is something else to watch - merrily bombing along at 320kph, big boost from the hybrid and its instantly at 360kph.
Would love to see them do a F1 "evo", but as alluded to with the Newey Gran Turismo car - highly unlikely that anyone would be able to drive it without their head flying off or them passing out.
As an aside - anyone who has ever been on the "Rita Queen of Speed" ride at Alton Towers knows roughly what the acceleration we are talking about here feels like - horrendous - I would be unable to remember my own name and would be genuinely terrified if my right foot was in charge of that. I would definitely not be able to do it while avoiding other cars, playing with steering wheel settings and speaking to the pit wall on the radio...
Edited by Parsnip on Thursday 21st November 09:37
I'd expect that for most of us, given enough exposure and experience to driving a Formula 1 car, you'd get used to operating at that speed, ignoring the forces and focussing on the decisions you need to make. You'd adapt naturally and sooner or later find time to focus on cars around you, pit comms and wheel settings. On the straights at least... many current F1 drivers can't cope with talking to the pits while cornering.
I'm not saying we'd get up to F1 competitive speed though
I'm rather estimating that private drivers of classic Formula 1 cars go through this adaptive period successfully as a norm.
I can't speak for F1, but I raced various single seaters for ten years and yes, you just adapt. Getting in your road car to drive home after a day's testing is a weird experience; even in my Elise I remember it seemed like you were stuck in fifth gear the whole time, and the cornering and braking seemed non-existent. Throughout that time I tried a lot of road cars and none of them really felt fast at all.ELUSIVEJIM said:
It's been debunked many times. There's no way a rally car with less power, much less downforce, narrower tyres and carrying a lot more weight could get anywhere near an F1 laptime.kiseca said:
RobM77 said:
kiseca said:
Parsnip said:
Driving a car with 720bhp into a corner and then having it suddenly gain another 440bhp on corner exit must be more than a little odd.
The Nurburgring lap is something else to watch - merrily bombing along at 320kph, big boost from the hybrid and its instantly at 360kph.
Would love to see them do a F1 "evo", but as alluded to with the Newey Gran Turismo car - highly unlikely that anyone would be able to drive it without their head flying off or them passing out.
As an aside - anyone who has ever been on the "Rita Queen of Speed" ride at Alton Towers knows roughly what the acceleration we are talking about here feels like - horrendous - I would be unable to remember my own name and would be genuinely terrified if my right foot was in charge of that. I would definitely not be able to do it while avoiding other cars, playing with steering wheel settings and speaking to the pit wall on the radio...
I would guess it's like any speed. Your mind speeds up to compensate. I don't know how - perhaps by reducing focus on other things. If you're driving along at motorway speeds for an hour or two and then slow down to town speeds, it feels like you're really crawling because you've got used to your environment changing much more quickly.The Nurburgring lap is something else to watch - merrily bombing along at 320kph, big boost from the hybrid and its instantly at 360kph.
Would love to see them do a F1 "evo", but as alluded to with the Newey Gran Turismo car - highly unlikely that anyone would be able to drive it without their head flying off or them passing out.
As an aside - anyone who has ever been on the "Rita Queen of Speed" ride at Alton Towers knows roughly what the acceleration we are talking about here feels like - horrendous - I would be unable to remember my own name and would be genuinely terrified if my right foot was in charge of that. I would definitely not be able to do it while avoiding other cars, playing with steering wheel settings and speaking to the pit wall on the radio...
Edited by Parsnip on Thursday 21st November 09:37
I'd expect that for most of us, given enough exposure and experience to driving a Formula 1 car, you'd get used to operating at that speed, ignoring the forces and focussing on the decisions you need to make. You'd adapt naturally and sooner or later find time to focus on cars around you, pit comms and wheel settings. On the straights at least... many current F1 drivers can't cope with talking to the pits while cornering.
I'm not saying we'd get up to F1 competitive speed though
I'm rather estimating that private drivers of classic Formula 1 cars go through this adaptive period successfully as a norm. I can't speak for F1, but I raced various single seaters for ten years and yes, you just adapt. Getting in your road car to drive home after a day's testing is a weird experience; even in my Elise I remember it seemed like you were stuck in fifth gear the whole time, and the cornering and braking seemed non-existent. Throughout that time I tried a lot of road cars and none of them really felt fast at all. You can imagine the magnitude of that effect if you have a full racing setup and are chasing tenths in the FF day after day year after year. Increase the performance of the FF up to an FR/F3 and you can see why many racing drivers aren't bothered by road car performance. Balance, yes, feedback, yes, but a 335i vs a 316i? Inconsequential.I remember Dean Stoneman taking a car journalist around a track in a V10 Audi R8 and the journo (visibly squirming, but enjoying the ride) shakily asked Dean if the Audi felt fast, and Dean just calmly replied "no, it doesn't feel fast at all".
Parsnip said:
Would love to see them do a F1 "evo", but as alluded to with the Newey Gran Turismo car - highly unlikely that anyone would be able to drive it without their head flying off or them passing out.
As an aside - anyone who has ever been on the "Rita Queen of Speed" ride at Alton Towers knows roughly what the acceleration we are talking about here feels like - horrendous - I would be unable to remember my own name and would be genuinely terrified if my right foot was in charge of that. I would definitely not be able to do it while avoiding other cars, playing with steering wheel settings and speaking to the pit wall on the radio...
This is pretty much where we're at with car performance in general to be honest - limited by the human driver. It's been that way in F1 for decades, with each era seeking to slow down the cars slightly and force development into new ways of finding a little more speed again.As an aside - anyone who has ever been on the "Rita Queen of Speed" ride at Alton Towers knows roughly what the acceleration we are talking about here feels like - horrendous - I would be unable to remember my own name and would be genuinely terrified if my right foot was in charge of that. I would definitely not be able to do it while avoiding other cars, playing with steering wheel settings and speaking to the pit wall on the radio...
I have ridden Rita, and others around the world and the reality is that today, anyone with a driving license (and about £800 a month to lease..) can have a Tesla Model S and accelerate as quickly. Next year they'll happily sell you a car that will take another half second off that 0-60 launch!
As one of the JLR bosses said when asked about an SVR performance version of the i-Pace... "Sure, we can make a version with very few changes that will hit 60 in under 2 seconds - we're just not sure we want to be selling untrained drivers such a vehicle".
Brave new world for motoring in general!
mat205125 said:
What about a guesstimate of a comparison of an F1 car vs the Toyota WEC car around LeMans?
F1 car is about 6 seconds faster around Silverstone (pole time comparison), however can't imagine it keeping that advantage around the full lap of LeSarthe (sp?)
That's a question...F1 car is about 6 seconds faster around Silverstone (pole time comparison), however can't imagine it keeping that advantage around the full lap of LeSarthe (sp?)
The F1 car is probably as fast/faster in each sector of the circuit, but over an entire hot lap the F1 car would have heat and tyre issues. To compete it would be the equivalent of a full speed hot quali lap of the track, which I don't think is possible at La Sarthe as it's over 8 miles long.
F1 cars are pretty useless after a single fast lap of the circuits they normally race on, and the longest of those (Belgium) is only half the length of La Sarthe.
However, if the F1 car could on that particular circuit build a big enough lead in the first half, it could possibly hold the lead through the second half. Basically the longer the trial, the more likely it is that the WEC car will eventually take the lead, as they are literally designed to run at high pace all day long.
That said... to make it even more complex, the hypothetical F1 car wouldn't be bound by F1 rules, so perhaps something impressive could be achieved in how energy is harvested and deployed that could keep it ahead, in a way that can't be done at sanctioned F1 sessions. Without the F1 regs to worry about, an F1 car could potentially reveal extra pace in a few ways.
mat205125 said:
What about a guesstimate of a comparison of an F1 car vs the Toyota WEC car around LeMans?
F1 car is about 6 seconds faster around Silverstone (pole time comparison), however can't imagine it keeping that advantage around the full lap of LeSarthe (sp?)
JPM’s 2005 v10 Williams BMW would very much like this challenge F1 car is about 6 seconds faster around Silverstone (pole time comparison), however can't imagine it keeping that advantage around the full lap of LeSarthe (sp?)
with those straights.A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
Deesee said:
JPM’s 2005 v10 Williams BMW would very much like this challenge with those straights.
A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
That's a good point - I had answered on the assumption it would be a current F1 car. Yep, the V10 era cars would be far more potent over such a length, flat out. It'd sound better as a spectacle too! with those straights.A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
Kind of also opens up a discussion about which tyres the F1 car is allowed to use too. The modern 'made to fail' tyres really won't appreciate a continuous 8 miles of maximum pace quali style attack..
TheDeuce said:
Deesee said:
JPM’s 2005 v10 Williams BMW would very much like this challenge with those straights.
A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
That's a good point - I had answered on the assumption it would be a current F1 car. Yep, the V10 era cars would be far more potent over such a length, flat out. It'd sound better as a spectacle too! with those straights.A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
Kind of also opens up a discussion about which tyres the F1 car is allowed to use too. The modern 'made to fail' tyres really won't appreciate a continuous 8 miles of maximum pace quali style attack..
those Schumi Bridgestone specs will do!
Oh and I think the Turbo Hybrids (2014) can start to be used for Demos from next yr....so...
Let’s line up Le Mans, Fuji & (hmmm) a track off the A1 (in Germany)
For some ‘demo’ times.TheDeuce said:
mat205125 said:
What about a guesstimate of a comparison of an F1 car vs the Toyota WEC car around LeMans?
F1 car is about 6 seconds faster around Silverstone (pole time comparison), however can't imagine it keeping that advantage around the full lap of LeSarthe (sp?)
That's a question...F1 car is about 6 seconds faster around Silverstone (pole time comparison), however can't imagine it keeping that advantage around the full lap of LeSarthe (sp?)
The F1 car is probably as fast/faster in each sector of the circuit, but over an entire hot lap the F1 car would have heat and tyre issues. To compete it would be the equivalent of a full speed hot quali lap of the track, which I don't think is possible at La Sarthe as it's over 8 miles long.
F1 cars are pretty useless after a single fast lap of the circuits they normally race on, and the longest of those (Belgium) is only half the length of La Sarthe.
However, if the F1 car could on that particular circuit build a big enough lead in the first half, it could possibly hold the lead through the second half. Basically the longer the trial, the more likely it is that the WEC car will eventually take the lead, as they are literally designed to run at high pace all day long.
That said... to make it even more complex, the hypothetical F1 car wouldn't be bound by F1 rules, so perhaps something impressive could be achieved in how energy is harvested and deployed that could keep it ahead, in a way that can't be done at sanctioned F1 sessions. Without the F1 regs to worry about, an F1 car could potentially reveal extra pace in a few ways.
Or maybe Monza.
Deesee said:
JPM’s 2005 v10 Williams BMW would very much like this challenge with those straights.
A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
Since we're going slightly off topic, we're in danger of opening the "what would a no-rules F1 car look like?" can of worms. with those straights.A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
A 2019 car, with tyres that last, and all that hybrid b@ll@x thrown away and replaced with a toluene rocket fuel burning BMW Megatron doing it's best not to grenade in the back!!
mat205125 said:
Since we're going slightly off topic, we're in danger of opening the "what would a no-rules F1 car look like?" can of worms.
A 2019 car, with tyres that last, and all that hybrid b@ll@x thrown away and replaced with a toluene rocket fuel burning BMW Megatron doing it's best not to grenade in the back!!
A 'no rules' 'F1' (ish) car was designed but not built, as the awkward reality is that without regs, it's very easy at this point to design an 'F1' car that would be way to brutal for any human to actually drive it. 300mph and repeat 8g lateral is just too much! We would have to accept AI controlled racing before we ever get such a car on an F1 circuit I think.A 2019 car, with tyres that last, and all that hybrid b@ll@x thrown away and replaced with a toluene rocket fuel burning BMW Megatron doing it's best not to grenade in the back!!
mat205125 said:
Deesee said:
JPM’s 2005 v10 Williams BMW would very much like this challenge with those straights.
A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
Since we're going slightly off topic, we're in danger of opening the "what would a no-rules F1 car look like?" can of worms. with those straights.A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
A 2019 car, with tyres that last, and all that hybrid b@ll@x thrown away and replaced with a toluene rocket fuel burning BMW Megatron doing it's best not to grenade in the back!!
OP here
Thankyou for some great replies, there are some very knowledgeable people on here.
Developing it slightly. A very very fast lap of the Nurburgring is 7mins.
What could an F1 car do it in with someone who really knew the circuit at the wheel?
I’m working on the basis that the ground clearance would be no issue?
I know it’s guess work but could it get under 6 minutes?
Thankyou for some great replies, there are some very knowledgeable people on here.
Developing it slightly. A very very fast lap of the Nurburgring is 7mins.
What could an F1 car do it in with someone who really knew the circuit at the wheel?
I’m working on the basis that the ground clearance would be no issue?
I know it’s guess work but could it get under 6 minutes?
Didn't Heidfeld do a quick-ish lap in a BMW Sauber? Yes, here it is: https://wtf1.com/post/throwback-to-when-nick-heidf...
Not full tilt though, so plenty of scope for a better time
Not full tilt though, so plenty of scope for a better time
Thankyou4calling said:
OP here
Thankyou for some great replies, there are some very knowledgeable people on here.
Developing it slightly. A very very fast lap of the Nurburgring is 7mins.
What could an F1 car do it in with someone who really knew the circuit at the wheel?
I’m working on the basis that the ground clearance would be no issue?
I know it’s guess work but could it get under 6 minutes?
Easily, yes. BMW engineers looked at Nick Heifeld's data after he did a lap and estimated a low 5 minute lap would be possible. I suspect with time at the circuit to optimise the setup it would go quicker than that.Thankyou for some great replies, there are some very knowledgeable people on here.
Developing it slightly. A very very fast lap of the Nurburgring is 7mins.
What could an F1 car do it in with someone who really knew the circuit at the wheel?
I’m working on the basis that the ground clearance would be no issue?
I know it’s guess work but could it get under 6 minutes?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ETA: The above link also contains a link to a video of Nick's lap.
ETA again: With regard to ground clearance, F1 cars and all single seaters have an easy adjustment for ground clearance - I used to fiddle with my FR all the time, because to satisfy UK club racing rules I had to run it at a silly ride height, but I often used to put it back where it should be for my own enjoyment. Obviously the higher you run the slower you are, due to weight transfer effects, CofG and a reduction in downforce from the diffuser.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 26th November 15:38
RobM77 said:
Easily, yes. BMW engineers looked at Nick Heifeld's data after he did a lap and estimated a low 5 minute lap would be possible. I suspect with time at the circuit to optimise the setup it would go quicker than that.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ETA: The above link also contains a link to a video of Nick's lap.
Also that was a standard, by the regs F1 car - less any tweaks they did give it. It's quite staggering to think just how fast a car a modern F1 team could produce and send round the ring if they were not bound by regulation. In the end the limit of speed would definitely be the drivers ability to keep up/maintain consciousness. The theoretical car though... that would cope just fine.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ETA: The above link also contains a link to a video of Nick's lap.
TheDeuce said:
RobM77 said:
Easily, yes. BMW engineers looked at Nick Heifeld's data after he did a lap and estimated a low 5 minute lap would be possible. I suspect with time at the circuit to optimise the setup it would go quicker than that.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ETA: The above link also contains a link to a video of Nick's lap.
Also that was a standard, by the regs F1 car - less any tweaks they did give it. It's quite staggering to think just how fast a car a modern F1 team could produce and send round the ring if they were not bound by regulation. In the end the limit of speed would definitely be the drivers ability to keep up/maintain consciousness. The theoretical car though... that would cope just fine.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
ETA: The above link also contains a link to a video of Nick's lap.
As I said earlier, I think the most dramatic way to show how fast F1 cars go is to look at the performance of the lower formulae. F3 for example has 240bhp, FR has 210bhp, but both are massively quicker around a track than even the very fastest limited edition road cars like the McLaren Senna. Then imagine quadrupling the power and uprating the aero package considerably - that's F1.Deesee said:
mat205125 said:
What about a guesstimate of a comparison of an F1 car vs the Toyota WEC car around LeMans?
F1 car is about 6 seconds faster around Silverstone (pole time comparison), however can't imagine it keeping that advantage around the full lap of LeSarthe (sp?)
JPM’s 2005 v10 Williams BMW would very much like this challenge F1 car is about 6 seconds faster around Silverstone (pole time comparison), however can't imagine it keeping that advantage around the full lap of LeSarthe (sp?)
with those straights.A 2018 Ferrari with double/triple ( as length of circuit) MGU K battery deployment would give it a fair lick too over a pole lap.
With the modern turbo hybrid they would need to de restrict the battery deployment/storage, otherwise they would be 160bhp down half way on every straight.
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