Penske to buy Mercedes F1
Discussion
Lotus Elan +2 said:
TheDeuce said:
Beginning of the end of what?
My apologies for my vague statement. I meant the beginning of the end of Mercedes in F1.
That's why I posted it in the F1/Penske/Mercedes thread
However - quite apart from Mercedes AG main business, there are a few reasons why Mercedes may wish to exit F1 after next year. If they believe they can continue to dominate in 2021 and beyond, I expect they will stay. If not, it would make sense to smash a few more records next year and then leave at the ultimate high point. Also I suppose they have to start to consider at what point being globally famous in an ICE sport is going to clash with their drive to become an EV leader. Lots of tricky decisions to make in the automotive industry right now.
Developing EV technology and rolling out manufacturing/charging infrastructure for it is massively, massively expensive. Far more than incremental development of ICE into existing model ranges.
At the same time, sales of new ICE vehicles are being suppressed by worldwide financial, environmental and governmental conditions.
In other words, right at the time car makers need large wodges of cash to develop EVs, their profits from existing models are being squeezed.
Aside from Ferrari I'd expect no manufacturer to be comfortable with the concept of large investment in F1, it the 2021nriles remain as is.
From a PR perspective, the Boards of said manufacturers tend to be very uncomfortable making large scale job cuts whilst continuing vanity projects (conceding they are marketing friendly, but not essential) such as F1.
I'd go as far to say I'd be amazed if Mercedes and/or Renault were present as full teams by 2021/22.
At the same time, sales of new ICE vehicles are being suppressed by worldwide financial, environmental and governmental conditions.
In other words, right at the time car makers need large wodges of cash to develop EVs, their profits from existing models are being squeezed.
Aside from Ferrari I'd expect no manufacturer to be comfortable with the concept of large investment in F1, it the 2021nriles remain as is.
From a PR perspective, the Boards of said manufacturers tend to be very uncomfortable making large scale job cuts whilst continuing vanity projects (conceding they are marketing friendly, but not essential) such as F1.
I'd go as far to say I'd be amazed if Mercedes and/or Renault were present as full teams by 2021/22.
janesmith1950 said:
Developing EV technology and rolling out manufacturing/charging infrastructure for it is massively, massively expensive. Far more than incremental development of ICE into existing model ranges.
At the same time, sales of new ICE vehicles are being suppressed by worldwide financial, environmental and governmental conditions.
In other words, right at the time car makers need large wodges of cash to develop EVs, their profits from existing models are being squeezed.
Aside from Ferrari I'd expect no manufacturer to be comfortable with the concept of large investment in F1, it the 2021nriles remain as is.
From a PR perspective, the Boards of said manufacturers tend to be very uncomfortable making large scale job cuts whilst continuing vanity projects (conceding they are marketing friendly, but not essential) such as F1.
I'd go as far to say I'd be amazed if Mercedes and/or Renault were present as full teams by 2021/22.
Some fair points there. I had looked at it from a purely ROI effect, and if F1 works as effective marketing then it makes sense in that regard.At the same time, sales of new ICE vehicles are being suppressed by worldwide financial, environmental and governmental conditions.
In other words, right at the time car makers need large wodges of cash to develop EVs, their profits from existing models are being squeezed.
Aside from Ferrari I'd expect no manufacturer to be comfortable with the concept of large investment in F1, it the 2021nriles remain as is.
From a PR perspective, the Boards of said manufacturers tend to be very uncomfortable making large scale job cuts whilst continuing vanity projects (conceding they are marketing friendly, but not essential) such as F1.
I'd go as far to say I'd be amazed if Mercedes and/or Renault were present as full teams by 2021/22.
But as you sensibly point out, it is difficult to bin off 10,000 employees and also support a £400,000+ F1 effort.
Tough times indeed for a somewhat mature and set in their ways industry.#
EDIT: £400m, not £400,000
Edited by TheDeuce on Friday 29th November 19:53
vaud said:
janesmith1950 said:
Perhaps the wrong thread, however I also note Binotto said today he "can only be happy" that Hamilton is free from 2021. About as close as it gets to "come and drive for us".
Or worst case he can mildly annoy Mercedes by driving up Hamilton's salary.
I really can't see Lewis ending a self propelled career with a stint at 'do as we say- and be our way' Ferrari. There are major problems with that. For one, Niki Lauda identified Lewis as the perfect driver, and made damn certain there was no disconnect between how Lewis viewed his job and how the team viewed theirs - a true team effort, both parts endlessly respectful of the other. There is a common factor in how Toto, Allison, Lewis & Bottas present themselves and I think it comes down to a harmonious and two way relationship between team and drivers. things are a little different at Ferrari.. Additionally, Lewis's route in to F1 was via McLaren, a team he worshipped as a kid - so on that point alone he's not a Ferrari driver.
The biggest reason I can't see him going to Ferrari...? He's already won, repeatedly. The chances post 2021 of any other team achieving the same as he has with Mercedes is slim indeed, at least for several years. And he has so many other passions and projects.
He'll never have what he has at Mercedes, it is the perfect story and it must have an ending. The perfect ending would be to stop before the story becomes all sad and boring. And red (ish - more slightly orange in some light these days).
ajprice said:
TheDeuce said:
Or he simply can't wait for Lewis to go away and/or for Mercedes to go away, or the whole dream team to collapse and stop making life difficult for Ferrari
Mercedes leaves, Red Bull fill the gap.More worryingly for Ferrari, that would mean that technically Max's car has beaten either of their own. Dark days indeed.
Can't help but think Ferrari need to get modern. The history of their endeavours is impressive and important but they're starting to look a bit daft. Choosing a number one ahead of seeing their performance - what the hell is that all about? So long as they have that mindset, they won't beat Merc, nor red bull if Merc leave.
janesmith1950 said:
Hamilton and Vettel to swap places for 2021.
This could be funny, Vettel moves to the top team just as they get sold and undergo massive upheaval which results in the performance dropping off. Hamilton moving to Ferrari as Harry Potter has ensured a period of stability enabling the team to find the speed they currently lack (sometimes).Can you imagine the speed at which the dummy will be travelling?
rallycross said:
Are Ferrari developing any EV powered cars?
As I understand it no - I can't remember where but they were quoted in story somewhere saying they felt hybrid to enhance their cars was their wisest path - as opposed to full EV.On the other hand, that will surely change at some point in the not too distant future and I'd be pretty shocked if they weren't giving it plenty of thought and made some calculations as to what an EV Ferrari could offer in terms of performance. I'm sure they'll also have one eye on the sales figures and relative performance of Porsche's Taycan.
Electric is a big problem for Ferrari right now too. Their brand is about light and frenetic cars - even the GT cars. Current batteries are just too heavy for that kind of pureness. They have their SUV coming in a couple of years but that's already confirmed hybrid.
rallycross said:
Are Ferrari developing any EV powered cars?
Not Ferrari themselves, they are going to use Maserati as the EV and hybrid brand. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/maserati/ajprice said:
rallycross said:
Are Ferrari developing any EV powered cars?
Not Ferrari themselves, they are going to use Maserati as the EV and hybrid brand. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/maserati/ajprice said:
Not Ferrari themselves, they are going to use Maserati as the EV and hybrid brand. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/maserati/
How can Ferrari 'use' Maserati? They are no longer under the same ownership structure. My understanding is that Ferrari cannot benefit from FCA's activities (under which Maserati is owned) in respect of its emission commitments.
janesmith1950 said:
ajprice said:
Not Ferrari themselves, they are going to use Maserati as the EV and hybrid brand. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/maserati/
How can Ferrari 'use' Maserati? They are no longer under the same ownership structure. My understanding is that Ferrari cannot benefit from FCA's activities (under which Maserati is owned) in respect of its emission commitments.
janesmith1950 said:
That may be the case, but what FCA do with their brands has nothing to do with Ferrari, as far as I see it based on their structure. FCA don't own Ferrari. Therefore Maserati becoming electrified is as relevant to Ferrari as BMW or Aston Martin doing the same.
Oh, I might be out of date. I thought Ferrari left FIAT group, however FIAT still own the majority shares - and are themselves within the FCA group?If so FCA > FIAT> Ferrari. Even though Ferrari generally act autonomously again these days.
Isn't that how Alfa got the cut down Ferrari engine? Even though Ferrari say it isn't their engine - even though, it definitely is.
TheDeuce said:
janesmith1950 said:
That may be the case, but what FCA do with their brands has nothing to do with Ferrari, as far as I see it based on their structure. FCA don't own Ferrari. Therefore Maserati becoming electrified is as relevant to Ferrari as BMW or Aston Martin doing the same.
Oh, I might be out of date. I thought Ferrari left FIAT group, however FIAT still own the majority shares - and are themselves within the FCA group?If so FCA > FIAT> Ferrari. Even though Ferrari generally act autonomously again these days.
Isn't that how Alfa got the cut down Ferrari engine? Even though Ferrari say it isn't their engine - even though, it definitely is.
So, although everyone knows that it's still the same people in charge of both companies, FCA/Fiat corporately no longer own any shares in Ferrari.
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